Germaine Greer

[Ariana12]

An article from 1989. She always knew. And she was ostracised for it

What foresight. Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed reading it and it's reminded me just how much love and respect I have for Greer.

This bit really resonates as someone with an internal identity of about 35.

"They might with as much justification change the birth dates in the passports of women who are on oestrogen replacement or have had facelifts, but this is unlikely to happen. Age is considered real, femaleness not"

I’m not sure. I don’t think she had kids herself. ‘Erotic’ seems like a totally inappropriate word to any parent, I think. Perhaps what she meant was more like ‘sensual’ - that very physical, doubtless oxytocin-enhanced feeling of love? And her point is that the male-centric lens focusses only on sexual sensuality?

Successful because men play women off one another, usually the younger women against the older women.

I also found that jarring. AI tells me that although the word erotic typically refers to romantic, passionate, longing, etc, it is also:

'used more broadly in philosophy and psychology for a powerful life force or energy, extending beyond just physical sex to encompass deep emotional and creative connection, like the "erotic" as a reclaiming of feminine life force.'

Edit to add: I wouldn't have chosen that word though given that most readers wouldn't know that it has this secondary meaning and how inappropriate the primary meaning is in this context!

The other thing I noted is that it was published in The Independent.

Actually, it was 'The Independence Magazine' - I don't know if that is linked The Independent as we know it today.

Actually, if you’re look carefully, bottom right, it says Independent. 22 July 1989 was a Saturday, so I suspect that this was the magazine that accompanied the Saturday edition of the newspaper

She may have used the word ‘erotic’ deliberately to challenge our thinking -perhaps our reaction to it proves her point about the dominance of the ‘male paradigm’?

She would have been better off using a different term given the word has a sexual meaning for the vast majority of people.
Greer didn't have children herself so was clearly not speaking from her own experience.

100% agree with this. It feels like the prevailing narrative nowadays is that any strong feelings in men have to involve sex. It's ridiculous. We used to know that there were different types of love, and different ways of expressing them. Now it sometimes feels like sex is the only thing that matters. If a man likes something, he'll want to fuck it (or want to turn into it so he can be it while fucking it). It's why it somewhat annoys me when people go on about having a girl crush on Naomi Cunningham or JKR or whoever. Why can't we love and respect someone without making it sexual? The love between a mother and baby, including the physicality of that, is truly special. Infants need touch. When I had mine we were told how important early skin to skin was etc. But then big old blokes dressed as women come along and demand to get involved, and claim it is innocent while getting turned on by the whole thing. Greer is right, we should all just tell them all to piss off!

I have not ever seen a coherent explanation, Flirts, as to why trans age is considered not possible, yet trans sex is. And it usually revolves around the word 'gender' but falls apart completely when we point out that in that case 'gender' is not 'sex' and people should expect to be treated as their sex when sex matters.

And also then comes the 'social' sex treatment argument which also crumbs in the face of people should expect to be treated as their sex when sex matters. If it is only 'socially' they expect to be treated as their sex.

Yet, no one will answer on the trans age comparison except to deny it without any valid reason that the comparison is flawed.

I have not ever seen a coherent explanation, Flirts, as to why trans age is considered not possible, yet trans sex is.

Similarly, I've never seen anyone explain why Rachel Dolezal posing as a black woman and saying she "identified" as black was deeply offensive* and required her to resign/be cancelled, but a man posing as a woman and saying he "identifies" as female is to be lauded as stunning/brave/progressive etc.

(* not that I'm saying it isn't offensive, because it is)

People have always tried to avoid looking their age, whether it's teenagers trying to look older, or everybody else trying to look younger. The difference is there's no legal recognition.

Be more Greer for sure. Amazing woman.

The age discussion is always well set out with sports as an illustration too.

Would someone accept an adult competing in an event that was for under 11 year olds?

Would someone accept a 25 year old competing in an event that was designated for 85 year old athletes?

If not, why do they accept a male person competing as a female athlete in a female sporting event?

This is a brilliantly sound argument and much better than many of the other comparisons used when explaining why male-bodied people shouldn't be in female sports. Perhaps because all of us have some experience of being older and younger, and can imagine it.

“People who believe that feminists burn bras also believe that someone, usually me, has argued that there is no difference between the sexes.”

Fascinating that she already identified arguments that would be used against us, even back then.

Also identifying that so many of these men are covetous of womanhood as they perceive women have more freedom when it comes to sexual exhibitionism. A new angle for me, but it is true that scantily dressed women may be seen negatively, but not as predatory in the way a man would likely be.

With regard to use of the word erotic, I got to thinking about the (presumably) related erogenous zones. These too are primarily associated with sex within our society, but during breastfeeding, stimulation of the nipples leads to milk-letdown, which is the primary function of the sensitivity in that part of the body. I guess the pathways for all these things are crossed and related, despite the primary functions being different.

Greer also went through a phase of idealising the bodies of boys and is therefore sometimes accused of paedophile tendencies. I think she has some very personalised opinions, based on her own observations, which do not resonate with me at all, but her prescience on transactivism is astonishing. I wish more had arrived at the same conclusions much earlier than they did and I wonder whether her perspective on sexuality and sex differences are partially what allowed her such early insight.

I dislike her intensely after I saw her dismissing Vietnam veterans' war experiences

Veterans of which side in the Vietnam war?

I'm a huge admirer of Germaine Greer. I read The Female Eunuch when I was very young (16 or so) and it made a huge impression on me, even though I didn't understand half the words used in it and had to look them up in the dictionary.

I hesitated when I read the word "erotic" to describe a relationship between mother and baby. It was jarring.

Germaine Greer would never use a word by mistake. She is a brilliant woman with a brilliant mind. She does like to provoke the reader or listener, in order to make them think about what she's said. It is true she does not have any children, and that may be one reason why she chose this particular term over a less inflammatory one.

Why would that make a dfifference?

Where did you see this? Was it on TV, did you read something, was it something Germaine Greer said herself or was it somebody else criticising her for it?
I can't find any evidence for her having done this so I would be interested to know.

It was on TV. A while back. 15 years maybe?

and yes, it was her that said it

@Princejoffyjaffur are you sure? The only controversy GG has been reported as being involved in concerning army veterans is when she questioned whether the trauma from rape was worse than that experienced on the battlefield.