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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Simon Jenkins - reliably wrong

92 replies

rebax · 12/12/2025 10:50

A piece in the Guardian today:
The few trans people I have encountered are discreet. They avoid controversial situations and do not march for “trans rights”. They understand that they are exceptional and that it will take time for many others to accept them for who they are.
Rights are always sensitive, but there should be few cases that require litigation.

Trans rights should be a private affair. A toxic debate does no one any favours | Simon Jenkins

The courts are a clumsy means to negotiate social relationships. Let organisations make up their own minds about inclusion, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/dec/12/trans-rights-private-toxic-debate-courts-inclusion

OP posts:
Heggettypeg · 12/12/2025 19:16

Greyskybluesky · 12/12/2025 17:14

Hadley Freeman on X has quoted Nora Ephron on Jan Morris and what JM thought a woman was.

https://x.com/HadleyFreeman/status/1999516641160200304/photo/1

"And I wonder about all this, wonder how anyone in this day and age can think that this is what being a woman is about" (Nora Ephron, 1974)

And yet we keep being told that "it isn't about stereotypes".

HPFA · 12/12/2025 19:23

Rameneater · 12/12/2025 13:38

Yes this. Just compare it with his hot takes on how universities should work now, based on no apparent familiarity with this beyond his own experience at Oxford in 1987 or some such.

He's also opposed to any housebuilding while owning at least two houses himself.

earlyr1ser · 12/12/2025 19:50

I met him once. He was a Cnut.

lanadelgrey · 12/12/2025 20:35

The whole point about the Guides/WI is that their charitable purposes are girls and women. They are not there for boys and men unless they rewrite those articles.
As I always say, do write a letter or several.

WaterThyme · 12/12/2025 20:48

I wonder if Jenkins is from the same world as this corker of a programme from BBC2 in 1973:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4

about the Transex Liberation Group? As you watch it, do count (A) how many women appear and (B) how often the participants consider how women might be affected as opposed to (C) men being affected.

Answers: A - 0; B - never; C - yes, worries about deception

BBC - History of the BBC, Open Door

Open Door: Transex Liberation Group, BBC Two, Monday 4 June 1973

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4

moto748e · 12/12/2025 21:09

That looks interesting, and I feel that I ought to watch it.

But bloody hell, it's not Friday night viewing! 😁

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 12/12/2025 21:25

Greyskybluesky · 12/12/2025 19:01

Nora called it. In 1974.
Us "terfs" have always been here.

😂👏👍 very clever 😂

Abhannmor · 12/12/2025 21:42

RoyalCorgi · 12/12/2025 12:28

I found the link to the anecdote:

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/article/the-times-diary-johnson-girls-luxury-poesy-n6mntkwvk?

For those without a subscription:

'Jan Morris was transsexual long before it was fashionable, but there were aspects of the author’s old life that she didn’t easily let go. In An Unanchored Heart, a new memoir by Rory Knight Bruce, he writes about having lunch with Morris at her home in Wales, at the end of which he began to clear the dishes. “Sit down,” Morris ordered. “That is woman’s work.” She then remained sitting while the table was cleared by her wife, Elizabeth. There are some things a Casablanca surgeon can’t remove.'

Crikey. Such strategic ambiguity....

GoldThumb · 12/12/2025 21:44

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 12/12/2025 11:30

Lots wrong here, and the bit about job quotas is particularly annoying for some reason (why does he think they even exist?), but what really caught my eye is that he regularly socialised with Jan Morris, and actually thought he was a woman. Is this a perceptual problem? Men can't sex people accurately? Kemp J seems to have had the same issue with Upton. (The Judge in Kelly was female, but there were no trans witnesses in that case.)

Children between the ages of 3 and 6 think you can change sex by changing hair or clothing. Maybe Jenkins, Kemp, and the transmaidens are stuck at that stage of brain development.

Are men really that bad do we think? Or do they play pretend to be kind?

I’m only musing, as DH has just as good a perception as me I think.

This only comes to mind as we were driving the other day and there was a ‘woman’ crossing the road ahead of us, holding an umbrella that obscured the face. I immediately clocked it was a man.

DH said ‘Is that a bloke?’ Then 2 seconds later said ‘That’s definitely a bloke, look at the walk’

It makes sense to me though that women are better at telling immediately, but sometimes I do wonder if the men lie to ‘be kind’ and notice more than they would admit.

BunfightBetty · 12/12/2025 21:46

Simon, mate..... no bloke gets to tell women who we do and don't let into our spaces and prizes.

Fuck right off, you utter prick.

Catiette · 12/12/2025 21:52

Maybe this aversion to Maths is the issue? If you don't "get" proportions, I can see how quotients for jobs could be a problem. Ditto...

  • statistics (98% of sexual assaults, Simon!)
  • ratios (the proportion of transwomen jailed for sexual offences?)
  • surface area (does he know how much is taken up by male v. female children at play? can he extrapolate this to Girlguiding?)
  • probability theory (just open one door to one of your transwoman friends, and watch 1) how many female victims of sexual assault lower their eyes in fear... & 2) the kind of male who soon after follows them...)
  • set theory (this one's a particular challenge, I imagine)
  • algebra (also likely a problem - all those xx s and xy s, who knows what they really signify? 🤔)

Maybe he could start with some...

  • Triggernometry (episodes)?

Too much? OK, here's A Kindergarten-level exercise in ratios, to explain quotients.

All you have to do is count, Simon...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_G8_summit (link pasted in place of recalcitrant picture - most posters will know the one!)

(I found the article genuinely offensive - offensively stupid, as others have pointed out, but also, as a woman who used to have a word and protections to call her own, just straightforwardly, deeply offensive).

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 12/12/2025 22:02

GoldThumb · 12/12/2025 21:44

Are men really that bad do we think? Or do they play pretend to be kind?

I’m only musing, as DH has just as good a perception as me I think.

This only comes to mind as we were driving the other day and there was a ‘woman’ crossing the road ahead of us, holding an umbrella that obscured the face. I immediately clocked it was a man.

DH said ‘Is that a bloke?’ Then 2 seconds later said ‘That’s definitely a bloke, look at the walk’

It makes sense to me though that women are better at telling immediately, but sometimes I do wonder if the men lie to ‘be kind’ and notice more than they would admit.

Well that, or they are good at 'knowing while not knowing' (cf religious belief). I'd like to see more research, and on the correlation with belief in transgenderism. I've noticed that people don't change their minds much about this: they just go, like me, from vaguely apprehending the issue, to educating themselves, to going WTAF? Or, in the alternative, they believe the whole package and won't be talked out of it. Is it about personality type, timing of exposure, or what?

Jenkins obviously knows nothing about it, to an embarrassing extent, and I suspect he would be in the WTAF? category if he wasn't too lazy to do the reading.

Catiette · 12/12/2025 22:03

I mean, FFS, there's a café I used to love going to that I now tend to avoid because the toilets are mixed-sex. There's a transwoman who works there, one that I think (despite the 6 foot stature) Simon would see as "the real deal", and no, Simon, I wouldn't feel safe sharing with them. And my discomfort would be no more or less than with any other male who may walk in. The sticking point being, Simon, that oh-so-insignificant issue of any male being able to overpower or kill me with his bare hands should he so choose - and, the stats show, a far greater likelihood of trying whatever he calls himself.

(Take note, Mr. "no evidence of risk, and btw the world is flat and aliens built the pyramids" Employment Judge Kemp).

moto748e · 12/12/2025 22:46

Jenkins is one of what I thought was a dying breed; pundits who were presented as wise men who knew plenty about anything. He doesn't seem to have shown much intellectual curiousity at all, so I think his no-doubt expensive education might have been wasted.

RedToothBrush · 12/12/2025 23:19

Bluebootsgreenboots · 12/12/2025 12:25

What a load of twaddle. So it’s up to each institution whether or not to let men in to spaces labelled as women’s. How would that work in practice? Each time I go to a women’s toilet I have to ask what the landlord / restaurant owner/ head teacher/ shopping centre manager / hospital CEO what they mean by women? Then are they allowed to change their definition week to week?
And as if women actually wanted to go to court! We have asked nicely many times. I’m sure in some cases women have been told ‘fine, we’ll keep the women’s spaces single sec’ and we don’t hear about those. But many other women have been punished for asking or told ‘no, suck it up’. Courses really are the last resort for women who want SSS.

"It's ok to decide whether to be sexist and discriminate against women or not being sexist and respect women."

Is basically the argument here.

I mean who is going to win here, every time?

All transwomen are nice and ago doesn't exist is a conversation from several years ago now.

cabjlhbojhs · 13/12/2025 07:38

Anybody fancy writing a reply to Guardian letters?

PermanentTemporary · 13/12/2025 07:53

Oi! I was at university soon after 1987 and I’m 25 years younger than Simon Jenkins. Try 1963 [misses point]

I don’t think I can always tell. In fact, I'm
pretty certain I can’t. There are always credible accounts on these threads of people who’ve had work colleagues for a long time and didn’t know. What nobody has explained is why that makes such an enormous difference. Sounds like the idea that if your wife doesn’t find out, there’s nothing wrong with shagging other people.

According to Simon, none of the old school ever campaigned or worked to achieve legal recognition of transition. It all happened by magic. If you believe that mate, I have a bridge to sell you.

GingerBeverage · 13/12/2025 08:28

Just putting this here:

Do you have an opinion on the issues raised in this article? If you would like to submit a response of up to 300 words by email to be considered for publication in our letters section, please click here.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 13/12/2025 08:37

Catiette · 12/12/2025 22:03

I mean, FFS, there's a café I used to love going to that I now tend to avoid because the toilets are mixed-sex. There's a transwoman who works there, one that I think (despite the 6 foot stature) Simon would see as "the real deal", and no, Simon, I wouldn't feel safe sharing with them. And my discomfort would be no more or less than with any other male who may walk in. The sticking point being, Simon, that oh-so-insignificant issue of any male being able to overpower or kill me with his bare hands should he so choose - and, the stats show, a far greater likelihood of trying whatever he calls himself.

(Take note, Mr. "no evidence of risk, and btw the world is flat and aliens built the pyramids" Employment Judge Kemp).

Edited

I'm sorry you've lost that loved resource. Many women have done so because of this agenda.

There are many men in my life that I love dearly, that I know I am always absolutely safe with, friends, relatives, colleagues, and I would not take my clothes off with any of them. Being decent people with the capacity to understand the issues and care about other people's needs and feelings as well as their own, they wouldn't ask this of anyone or inflict themselves on a woman either - and that's apart from that they also would not want to be required to undress with any of the opposite sex.

There is never ending demands to recognise all the feelings and wishes and perceived needs of being trans: yet never a reciprocal duty to try and understand the feelings, wishes and needs of those who are not trans, and matter as much as men with gender identities do.

Catiette · 13/12/2025 10:50

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 13/12/2025 08:37

I'm sorry you've lost that loved resource. Many women have done so because of this agenda.

There are many men in my life that I love dearly, that I know I am always absolutely safe with, friends, relatives, colleagues, and I would not take my clothes off with any of them. Being decent people with the capacity to understand the issues and care about other people's needs and feelings as well as their own, they wouldn't ask this of anyone or inflict themselves on a woman either - and that's apart from that they also would not want to be required to undress with any of the opposite sex.

There is never ending demands to recognise all the feelings and wishes and perceived needs of being trans: yet never a reciprocal duty to try and understand the feelings, wishes and needs of those who are not trans, and matter as much as men with gender identities do.

Thank you. The article really did touch a nerve - and I know I'm one of the (very) lucky ones as regards male violence/abuse. I can't imagine how the large proportion of women self-excluding from such spaces of necessity as opposed to choice may feel reading it.

I just don't know how to make these men understand. When they hand-wave a male into our spaces, they're taking away our equality in the most tangible, distressing sense.

Single sex = do your business unconcerned.

Mixed sex = every time a male of any description enters, including a "fully transitioned" transwoman, he becomes dominant, in that, if he so chooses, he can harm you.

Gone is that exquisite knowledge of absolute safety and equity. And, instead, you experience that uncomfortable, sometimes distressing, consciousness that you are now secondary to him. You assume he won't target you, it's unlikely he will. But he could, and if he does, there's nothing - nothing - you can do about it.

In a sense, the moment he enters, you're "in his hands" regardless of whether or not he chooses to act on that.

It's a monumental betrayal of women and expression of male privilege to dismiss this as utterly insignificant as Jenkins does.

Re: the cafe, I actually thought I was disappointed but not unduly concerned by the loos, until one day I exited a stall to see a man just two feet away washing his hands. The reaction was instant and visceral, as the moment I saw him, I was forced into assuming and trusting that he was one of the good ones. And yes, he was, the odds are that he will be, but why the hell should women have to experience this vulnerability to access public life?

And there are far, far too many bad ones. Including, the evidence positively screams, among Jenkins' favoured "transwomen".

Keeptoiletssafe · 13/12/2025 11:05

cabjlhbojhs · 13/12/2025 07:38

Anybody fancy writing a reply to Guardian letters?

I debated last night but I have spent time and effort writing before and they never publish them. I have I have a logical argument with plenty of scientific evidence that the toilet designs we all end up are worse for health and safety.

Keeptoiletssafe · 13/12/2025 11:08

They want your full name and address, and I don’t feel happy about that. I grew up with the Guardian and that breaks my heart a little.

Catiette · 13/12/2025 11:21

It's not for me to say to keep trying, KTS, but you do such an amazing job, it would be marvellous if you did once get through to them. Like you, though, I suspect your letters are just too convincing of our perspective to make it to publication. I also sympathise with the name and address thing. If nothing else, that should give the right-thinking Simon Jenkins of this world pause. To be supporting an argument that leaves some women fearful of accessing public spaces and of debating the issue under their own name in a national paper. It's what gives me pause, too - in the current context, it comes with genuine risks Jenkins simply doesn't face.

nicepotoftea · 13/12/2025 13:28

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 12/12/2025 11:30

Lots wrong here, and the bit about job quotas is particularly annoying for some reason (why does he think they even exist?), but what really caught my eye is that he regularly socialised with Jan Morris, and actually thought he was a woman. Is this a perceptual problem? Men can't sex people accurately? Kemp J seems to have had the same issue with Upton. (The Judge in Kelly was female, but there were no trans witnesses in that case.)

Children between the ages of 3 and 6 think you can change sex by changing hair or clothing. Maybe Jenkins, Kemp, and the transmaidens are stuck at that stage of brain development.

"but what really caught my eye is that he regularly socialised with Jan Morris, and actually thought he was a woman."

I think he means 'not a proper man'. I don't think he was claiming that he didn't know that Jan Morris was James Morris.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 13/12/2025 13:36

nicepotoftea · 13/12/2025 13:28

"but what really caught my eye is that he regularly socialised with Jan Morris, and actually thought he was a woman."

I think he means 'not a proper man'. I don't think he was claiming that he didn't know that Jan Morris was James Morris.

It's just a different frame of reference then: one that can only be adopted by someone not viscerally aware of the power differential between the sexes. In other words, a man, or a lucky and unimaginative woman.