Gov's plan to combat VAWG to focus on boys

[ArabellaSaurus]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c246l4mdg3jo

To be unveiled next week.

My understanding is that the decision to go mixed-sex for scouting was pragmatic, not ideological - they wanted/ needed more members - not ideological. I've noticed that most of the adult volunteers around me are now women, particularly for the younger sections, which does seem a shame in terms of reducing male role models. As you say, there is real value in demonstrating that men can and should do altruistic, caring work - but obviously the shortage in that is on the men not doing it, not the women who are!

I thought the ellipsis would have made it clear, but perhaps I should have ended that sentence with a /Sarcasm.

To everyone, please don't use a free VPN.

yeah, I read that as scathing sarcasm!

Unlike others, I very much have seen in 'real life' that boys feel alienated and put upon with some of the messaging around this - and while you can debate whether or not that's justified, the fact is it's not productive. Boys won't listen to a message that they interpret as telling them that they're bad and wrong from the off.

My view is that we've ended up in a society where young girls are largely seen more positively than young boys, but that this is doing no one any favours at all. Girls are seen positively but for exactly the traits - compliance, physical appearance, rule-following, self-sacrifice, unobtrusiveness - that hold them back in later life, so it just reinforces stereotypes and expectations that are harmful to women. And there is an abrupt about turn around who is favoured as they become teens and young people, so it doesn't do the girls any lasting good. Boys, in turn, are aware and resent being less favoured, which builds up feelings of bitterness that are extremely dangerous in a group that still grow up to be stronger and societally dominant.

I think a large reason my yonger two have so much less time or truck with the whole trans stuff is because it's been pushed so much via the schools in wales.

Depends on how this is done but it's potential to backfire is huge.

Some area of right wing media already feel masculinity under attack - the whole girl boss thing which is usually very bad writing and characterisation in so much film and TV often pointed as example - I think it just shit writing that appeals to no-one.

I remember radio 4 year ago doing an interview I think with a police force who were pinoeerring long term support for DV - as their research showed it cast a huge shadow long term over kids - and were working with charties and had some funding. I suspect that's what's needed multi displine support to stop cycles of behavior - instead it will be another tick box exercise for schools already trying to fix wider socities ills.

I have to say primary school were worst places for my kids to encouter gendered roles - we had a teacher say maths wasn't for girls in fornt of us to my eldest girl and later at next school when we mention DS was a reader got reponse boys don't read - we did say somthing and they did backtrack and we did spend a lot of time countering messaging at home. Those were worst examples but there was lot more subtle one - to extent I think schools may be very poorly placed to deliver such messaging.

I thought studies showed that parents treat boys more favourably, holding them to lower behavioural standards than girls, being more forthcoming with praise to sons than daughters, and more critical of their daughters.
In short, that boys are favoured over girls in their formative environment. So I'm not sure where the feelings of resentment are coming from, other than absorbing (false) messaging from groups with an agenda to make boys consider themselves victims.
Perhaps the alienation might arise from a departure from their usual experience of high praise low criticism, rather than the opposite.

but that this is doing no one any favours at all. Girls are seen positively but for exactly the traits - compliance, physical appearance, rule-following, self-sacrifice, unobtrusiveness - that hold them back in later life, so it just reinforces stereotypes and expectations that are harmful to women. And there is an abrupt about turn around who is favoured as they become teens and young people, so it doesn't do the girls any lasting good.

It was really odd at times with three kids close in age 2 girls and a boy watching what staff praised and ignore in the kids. DD1 helping her siblings od something huge praise - DS helping DD2 do something l completely ignored.

They all loved coding and coding games - over time DS got huge prasie in school for this and saw it as his thing - girls didn't and often got told off for exploring softwear packages in class. DD2 who used to do it as much as DS backed slowly away - she recently expressed concern one of the uni courses she was looking at had a compulsary coding module - and she worried - I ha dto remidn her till aroudn 13-14 she did coding challenges and like just as DS did and did just as well.

Her femals phycics teahcer kept on phsyics was hard - DD2 confidence dropped and she needed a lot of help at home to get a good grade - pretty sure there some research showing young women told before maths test maths is hard do less well but young men didn't suffer same effect. Though I do wonder if the boys were constantly told it was hard as much - not in class room so couldn't say.

My daughter ( 8) was thrown across the playground by a ( habitually aggressive) boy at school and broke her arm. A term later she was placed next to him in class to " model good behaviour" . I put a fucking stop to that. My daughter is not a therapy tool for a child with aggression issues.

I thought studies showed that parents treat boys more favourably, holding them to lower behavioural standards than girls, being more forthcoming with praise to sons than daughters, and more critical of their daughters.

Not seen those would be interesting to see if they are cross cultural or how different countries show this affect. Many parents studies on happiness levels are done in US which has some of the hardest conditions and least support for parents.

Have seen ones that show boys getting more food - starting even with bf and it's unconcious and parents seem unaware.

Working class boys - particular white one have been under performing for decades and MN often downplays it or point out 11+ girls needed to score higher even back in 50s or blame parents not valuing education. It's only really an issue for society as working class male industries with their routes though or up have pretty much gone - but social moblity in UK been going down for years so it's clearly not see as that much of an issue.

There's quite a lot of evidence that parents in the developed world now, on average, prefer to have girls: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2025/06/05/more-and-more-parents-around-the-world-prefer-girls-to-boys

And some evidence that when they have both they prefer their daughters: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-bul0000458.pdf

Anecdotally, as the mother of sons, I've been really shocked at how frequently people feel that this is something sad that I should be commiserated on. As I hope was clear from my first one, this isn't some 'poor boys' post - I think ultimately this preference does girls more harm than boys and reinforces some really regressive female expectations ('but will anyone look after you when you're old if you have sons?'), but I do think the preference is quite apparent now.

I thought I had seen research that girls receive more praise than boys from teachers - I can't find it, so perhaps have misremembered. Interestingly, along the way of looking I saw this study which says parents praise boys and girls roughly equally, but are more likely to praise boys for what they do (e.g. 'good job!', and girls for who they are (e.g. 'good girl'!): https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3655123/ I think that's a good example of what I mean - boys can 'hear' that as an expression that girls are inherently 'better', but actually it's boys who are benefiting in the long run, as 'process praise' is much better in the long run than 'person praise'.

Could I suggest you read PPs accounts of the abuse their daughters have suffered through this practice before you judge me as a ‘a bit harsh’? Both my daughters have had this inflicted on them at different times and have suffered, although not as badly as PPs. It affects their work and their sense of personal safety as they understand that teachers require them to scarce their own learning and comfort for the benefit of the boys.

‘Spacing out chatty girls’ is vastly different to making girls sit next to boys who really don’t want to be there and would rather torment the girl next to them because they know she will get her complaints at best ignored, at worst punished (she is there to fulfill a service to the boys after all - sarcasm).

There is a strong argument that parents are favouring girls if they discipline them more, given lack of rules, boundaries and discipline seems to be a widespread issue.

Also, if the "behavioural standard" relates to sitting still and quiet, then perhaps boys who are more likely to want to be running and shouting and letting out energy and aggression should be held to a lower standard for reasons of fairness - girls can behave 8/10 with ease, whereas the boys struggle to behave 7/10 even when they really try. Why should boys be punished more than girls if the ultimate reason is that the task given is one that girls tend to do better in? (Of course if the instruction was to run around and shout as if you were trying to scare off animals you can hear approaching from the darkness then things would switch and the boys should be held to a higher standard).

I think the main feelings of resentment come from inherently understanding that society, and in particular education, has been feminized in recent decades. And the constant hearing about toxic masculinity, but never hearing about how positive it is that many men can do what most women can't - like carrying people down ladders from burning buildings or step in to stop a violent crime that is taking place. Positive masculinity is rarely celebrated (other than elite level sport which is unattainable), and toxic femininity is rarely mentioned.

Whether or not boys "feelings of resentment" are "valid" and wherever they come from the fact is they exist. I am not sure that dismissing them as invalid helps boys (or girls, or women)

The Scottish curriculum has much to criticise, but I will say that primary school lessons and practise in terms of countering stereotypes were excellent - not sure how much of that was our particular school and how much the curriculum, but all children were encouraged to take part in all and any activities and use all toys, dress-up clothes, etc.

I kept a hawk eye on RSHP lessons ,and much of it was very good wrt challenging sexism etc.

I think its very important to differentiate between feelings of resentment that are 'valid', ie, reasonable and based in measurable and evidenced unfavourable treatment, and ones that are not, and are based in a thwarted sense of entitlement or a percieved victimhood, or loss of an advantage that should not have been there in the first place. A failure to do that and to treat all male feelings as valid certainly doesn't help women and girls.

I agree in that you need to take different approaches to the two - but I don't think just saying 'well you shouldn't feel like that anyway' is an adequate or effective response to the latter. I think we can see exactly how that goes by looking at how effective just telling people not be so racist has been as an intervention in the immigration debate. I also think we need to be careful that we're not expecting young boys now to make amends for historic discrimination against women and girls that they neither perpetuated nor benefited from. I think there is often an attitude of 'turnaround is fair play', and I think that is one of the things that is hugely resented by young men.

The Scottish curriculum has much to criticise, but I will say that primary school lessons and practise in terms of countering stereotypes were excellent - not sure how much of that was our particular school and how much the curriculum, but all children were encouraged to take part in all and any activities and use all toys, dress-up clothes, etc.

We were in England then moved to Wales - and saw it in both primary schools despite the difference in curriculums but we are in very working class communties and low expectations from staff was also a persistant issue -( and one I thought was worse for DS than DDs - though we also have ND/SEN issues affecting our kids differently)

Maybe the other local primaries had it less - though Dsis had it with neice in another English primary - but as you say how do you know if it's a lucky/unlucky school or a wider issue.

This with bells on.

I fundamentally starts and ends with telling girls to be kind but not expecting the same from boys.

Of course. It works in exactly the same way as discussing racism with white people - those who are knowingly racist don't care and those that feel they aren't racist feel guiltly by association, then aggrieved and defensive and just stop listening.

About 1000 mumsnets threads on racism will show you this exact process in detail.

I think maybe there's a middle ground.

We need to consider all feelings, whether valid or invalid. Obviously the way we address the feelings depends on how valid the feeling it.

I think a lot of men perceive the world to be how that disgusting Tate guy thinks it is. The world might be nothing like Tate says, but it only needs one or two examples (like Police or RAF recruiting so as to get the proportion who are white men down) and some young men are going to be all in supporting him.

As a white person when I'm part of discussions about racism, I think, do I do that thing? And if I do, now I understand its problematic, I will stop. Or I think, I don't do that thing, so I don't need to make changes to my behaviour in that regard. I would certainly never conclude, people are saying the behaviour of some white people is racist, so as a white person I might as well become a racist.
I've seen the threads certainly where a vocal cohort become very defensive. However their comments typically seem balanced by more thoughtful open minded people who don't react this way.
I'm not entirely sure how to reach those determined to centre thenselves as being maligned and insulted by a discussion about the behaviour of some members of the group they belong to.

I think one thing that may be hard to disagree with is a lack of positive male role models.

That is something that any man can help with, too.

Although as soon as I say that, visions of male 'feminists' berating women in public flashes into my head.