Gov's plan to combat VAWG to focus on boys

[ArabellaSaurus]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c246l4mdg3jo

To be unveiled next week.

I think placing the emphasis on TM is an excellent place to start.
That way we are encouraging boys to be aware that there is a societal construct that hurts people of both sexes.
If we are able to get buy in from male people that this is something that should be dismantled for everyone's benefit, they can be persuaded to be part of the solution rather than percieved as the problem.
As you say though, there is much misunderstanding of the term itself with people believing it means that being masculine is toxic, so a clear understanding is the start.

@MarieDeGournay It's not the NAMALT, but rather how to stop acerbating the problem by creating a backlash and leading more boys down a path of resentment.

Personally I see a lot of "don't do this, don't do that" (particular on TFL network), but don't see anything around "do this, do that", and I don't think it's targeted at the right audience either.

I think some parents have lost sight of what is acceptable behaviour and what is behaviour that other people shouldn’t have to put up with. I saw a TikTok video the other day of a little boy telling his mum how he was naughty during his Nativity play and got told off by his teacher. Instead of reinforcing how that would have spoiled it for all the other children, and their audience, Mum was laughing away - giving him the message that he can behave how he wants and everyone else has to put up with it.

I see it a lot in the HE community. I chose to HE because I wanted more time with my daughter and to have a lovely, relaxed time. There are a lot of parents who HE because their children have autism and/or ADHD and couldn’t cope at school. And I feel for them. But there is no accountability. No ‘stop doing that because you have hurt/upset X.’ Just, ‘Oh he has autism, he can’t help it.’ No perhaps he can’t, but perhaps you could help him by shadowing him and stopping him before he punches someone? And perhaps you could apologise to my child who has been hurt instead of giving yours a snack with zero explanation of why he can’t do whatever he’s just done? Always seems to be boys as well. There are plenty of girls with disabilities who are HE but they don’t hurt/upset children like lots of the boys do. And it’s not just hurting. It’s monopolising a whole workshop because they want to be the one who answers all the questions and gets to hold all the props etc. And Mum sits there looking proud instead of saying ‘let someone else have a turn.’

I don’t know what the answer is really. But we seem to be raising very self centred children who aren’t being taught to care about other people. Maybe parenting lessons for teenagers, before they become parents to tell them, however wonderful you think your child is, other people might not think the same and they should not have to put up with them being a little terror!

Maybe I missed it but I didn’t notice any mention of the effects of the normalisation of more extreme porn on boys and how to address that. Surely that’s a pretty significant factor?

I have been thinking about this myself as I have a DS. His dad sets him a good example in the way he treats me. However, I do think that, however much we say it isn't so, most people do take the term 'toxic masculinity' to means masculinity itself is harmful.

I wondered about reframing things in terms of physical differences that we definitely know about. For example, men do have greater upper body strength so you could show two different ways of using it. A good man might use it to help someone of either sex carry a buggy up a flight of stairs. A bad one would use it to hurt his partner of either sex. And I think it's best to start with the assumption that most boys would like to be good men and then to teach them how. I also agree though that it's not really fair for teachers to have to do that.

These are half formed thoughts but I thought I would post anyway.

Not just in school.
I did a speed awareness course last year (in my 50s). I was told by the instructors that I had to sit at a table with all men when I sat at an all women table because the class works better that way. I didn't dare complain as I needed my pass. I did complain to them loudly once I had my 'pass' in hand.

In my school we have (rightly so) girls rugby, girls cricket, girls football - all to increase participation in sports dominated by boys. They have gone from strength to strength.

When I have suggested (as asked for by the student school council) that we need boys gymnastics and boys dance and boys creative group (all currently mixed options but only attended by girls) I have been told there is no funding.

If we want boys to different, we have to start offering them different paths. We want to remove toxic masculinity, but don't actually want to do anything about it.

There was the 'say mate, to a mate' campaign.

My own half formed thoughts on this is that there needs to be an element of self interest introduced. I personally don't want our safety to be based on persuading boys to be nice men who dont hurt us. It's a bit flimsy and rests on the idea that men can choose to bestow the gift of safety upon us so please be kind enough to oblige.
I'd prefer to come at it from the angle that addressing harmful male behaviour is as much for their own benefit. Because if it goes unchecked there are consequences for us all. And if they choose not to be part of it they will be rewarded and escape the negative consequences.
However this can't be taught in isolation to boys as at present it's not really reinforced by reality. Because TM does bring rewards for those men in a position to benefit from it. Boys often see this and instread of seeing it as something to dismantle, aspire to being one of the men that benefit.

A boy I know was disciplined and accused of misogyny in class for suggesting that males are stronger than females (the context was sport).

Children can quickly grasp 'equity', and also quickly spot hypocrisy and double standards.

Is there actually any evidence that boys 'feel they are blamed for everything and that this alienates them further'? Because I see this said, but I'm not sure in what it's actually based.

Just look at the unlawful discrimination happily practised against white young men by a number of UK institutions including the RAF. And they are just the ones caught out.

The evidence is harder to quantify in younger age groups but certainly I have teacher friends who feel that especially white boys hear all the narratives about misogyny and ‘white privilege’ and feel that it’s aimed at them, whereas working class white boys have the lowest attainment rates and highest exclusion of any group. They find it harder to access support services as these are more geared to disadvantaged racial minorities.

I hear lots of accounts that boys and girls separate the toilets into male and female themselves, when newer schools have only mixed sex toilets.

Are there any more details about what working with teachers means?

I dont know if its more pshe stuff or whether it woukd be more like extending prevent and more specialist people intervening.

good for them!
(Off topic but it amused me - I noticed the same thing at a couple of visits to the Globe theatre this year. Their courtyard loos are 2 identical sets of ‘gender neutral’ cubicles. As soon as there were enough people using them that you can see who is coming and going they magically became M and F , either way round)

That's why I like the White Ribbon organisation, which BTW has a schools programme - it is a movement by men for men and boys, with an emphasis on positivity and empowerment.

About Us — White Ribbon UK

That said, I see nothing wrong with telling men 'don't do this don't do that' if the 'this and that' is violence against women.

But could you add a 'Do this' to the 'don't do that's? As in 'Do this, don't do that.' That way you're starting from a more positive assumption.

I think that the only way this is going to work in the long term is educating this generation of boys to engage with their children and model good behaviour, and talk to their children. Unless you can get the dads in and encourage them to engage ad model respectful and non-misogynist behaviour...

Yes, it does seem to provide a positive image for boys. It something the Boy Scouts used to do, but ever since they allowed girls in that message can no longer exist.

It is controversial, because whilst people support single sex girl guides, they're not so keen on single sex boy scouts, and so you're losing an avenue of where you can provide positive male models and behaviour.

But again with the White Ribbon campaign, whilst the front page shows a lot of positive male models, it does appear that a lot of the sessions are run by women, and a lot of those boys come from families where there isn't a male role model, so will it help?

I think male footballers would be good people to get on board with pushing the message that boys can be strong and active while also being kind and helpful. So many dads and boys almost worship footballers. I’ve known little boys of 7 practically rule an infant school because everyone knows they’ve got into an academy team so they are spoken about in reverential tones by other kids and parents! I’ve also heard of little girls of 6 and 7 no longer wanting to play at playtime because they stand and watch the boys play football and talk about which ones they ‘fancy!’

When my daughter was a toddler I took her to toddler dance classes and also toddler football classes. Just as ways of being active really and also because when I was 10 our school started a girls’ football class and I really enjoyed it but the boys’ class was on at the same time and the boys spent a lot of time laughing at the girls, who had mostly never played before. So none of us went back. And if my daughter found she loved football I wanted her to be able to hold her own with the boys as she got older. Anyway, there were no boys in the dance class and no (other) girls in the football class. Why? Why are little children being brought up with the stereotypes ‘this is for girls and that is for boys’ from such a young age, and coming from parents?

I think that's a bit harsh. Avoiding sitting badly-behaved kids (of whichever sex) next to each other is a perfectly sensible policy. Admittedly there tend to be more badly-behaved boys than girls, but tbh that gap has narrowed. I work in a girls' school and I certainly space out the chatty ones away from each other. Why wouldn't you?

I think that's a bit harsh. Avoiding sitting badly-behaved kids (of whichever sex) next to each other is a perfectly sensible policy. Admittedly there tend to be more badly-behaved boys than girls, but tbh that gap has narrowed. I work in a girls' school and I certainly space out the chatty ones away from each other. Why wouldn't you?

They resolved that with the Online Safety Act...

I think any policy needs to reach far wider than schools. It needs to start from infant education, parenting classes, and we need more social settings for kids of all ages. We need more men in nursery and education settings, not just for the boys but for the girls as well. This isn't something that can be resolved with a few classes, it needs societal change over a generation.

Edit to add: It should go without saying that we also need leadership to be clear on what they mean by women and girls and for that to be consistently applied.

Secondary school, with boys hitting puberty, is where the issues really come into stark relief. Yes girls act up, but it's boys who are involved in the more serious violence, crime, etc.

And the worst boys who may be in most need of intervention and most likely to have misogynist views will often self exclude from school in any case.

I think that an initiative by the government to make boys less misogynistic is doomed to failure.
It will probably lead to a few boys who say the wrong things being put on a prevent watchlist and visited and by the police as is this government’s preferred method of punishment.
I think the misogyny of on line culture is a bit of a moral panic in the same way the previous generation reacted to punk.

How did forcing eeryone, young and old, male and female, to choose between -

(1) downloading a free VPN (which can be used to access unlimited free porn) to access vaguely adult but non-pornographic news and social media content
or
(2) behave in a deeply irresponsible way with their own data to acheive the same access

resolve the issue with all porn, but particularly extreme (ie most of it) porn?