Fears Labour’s Islamophobia definition could silence women’s rights campaigners - Baroness Falkner

[IwantToRetire]

Labour's Islamophobia definition could be used to silence women’s rights campaigners, the recent head of the equalities watchdog has warned.

Baroness Falkner said the new definition could be weaponised against those who “dare” say that Muslim women are being suppressed.

The new definition – which has not yet been published by Communities Secretary Steve Reed – has been criticised by Tories as a route to a “de facto blasphemy law”.

Criticising the plans, Baroness Falkner told Sky News: “If they’re going to bring in yet another area where, for example, anyone who’s defending women’s rights is going to be accused by those ethnic minority men of Islamophobia, if they dare say something about how Muslim women are suppressed.

“I’m a Muslim woman myself. I know all about this.

“I know the community.”

NB source is the Sun! Link for full article https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37562911/labour-islamophobia-definition-silence-womens-rights/

That's not what I am saying but I think you know that. If you believe grooming gangs are representative of Muslims in any way, then my bet is that you do not have a single Muslim friend who considers themselves to be practicing. You might know Muslims. None of them count you as a friend though and you likely don't see them as a friend unless for the purposes of these types of conversations.

I think it’s ok to question and criticise even some of the practices of the religion, particularly since it impacts women and girls.

But grooming gangs arent a Muslim practice. Just like sodomy of little boys isnt a Catholic practice.

o.O
Is this thread not about a Muslim woman, Falkner, who is concerned about the religious/cultural aspects of the child grooming cases? This is just an attempt at gaslighting: I must not have read what I plainly did just read.

Gaslighting yes, it seems to be pp saying don’t talk about it.

That is not being disputed though.

The issue is that one specific group are working with the government to silence discussion/awareness/and ultimately prosecution on the abuse perpetrated by some members of their group.

We can’t allow another ‘sacred caste’ to be embedded further. Arguably it has already happened - see Muslim grooming gangs (as opposed to white grooming gangs). One group are enabled and still being shielded and allegedly allowed to continue by the authorities and even government, and the other get the full force of the law when caught.

This is partly what I mean by the power of the 6%.

Yes but FGM isnt a Muslim practice.

It is though. Not all Muslims (as I keep repeating) but some. If you had looked at the world map I shared above you would see that many of the countries with the highest number of cases (85-100% prevalence) are almost entirely Muslim. Only Eritrea is 50/50 Muslim/Christian as far as I can see but I haven’t done an exhaustive check - maybe you could do that?)

Why do you think you are better situated to challenge first cousin marriage practices than people from that community who do and can better advise where funding and government assistance might help?

Where have I said that I am the best person to challenge first cousin marriage? I have highlighted that our government are refusing to support a law banning it and trying to reduce the significant harm caused to thousands of babies.

How will you handle women from that community who argue for their right to marry their cousin if they want to?

Why would anyone demand the right to do something that is known to be harmful to health? I would expect people to abide by UK law the same as we abide by the law that says you can’t marry your grandfather or brother. The law is there for a very good reason.

You suddenly started talking about incel teenagers and excommunicating Jewish people on a thread about free speech, forgive me if I’m not following your specific train of thought.

People who know Muslims, have eaten in their homes and hugged their babies don't speak like you do. You can protest all you want, but I simply think you are lying.

You are accusing me of lying because I’ve mentioned harmful practices that some Muslims (NOT ALL MUSLIMS) adhere to. That’s a bit odd.

Is our Home Secretary also lying about having Muslim friends? Is Baroness Falkner lying?

Do you think that all Pakistanis are totally oblivious to the risks of consanguinity?

This was a good documentary some years ago. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p056gvhm

You know, if you look around the world, you'll find that all cows are animals. But more animals are not cows.

I didn't mention Jewish people.

Oh sorry, Jehovah’s witnesses. Still not relevant.

Totally relevant. Ex communication happens in many communities in many different ways

If we're not allowed to discuss something because it doesn't apply to every single person who may fall, or appear to fall, within a specific group, we'd never discuss anything!

Not all men sexually assault or abuse women, but we can still discuss that. Not all Catholic priests abuse children, but we need to be able to discuss that issue. Not all disabled people can work, so why spend time discussing adaptations for those who can let it upset someone who can't. The list is endless.

Do you think that all Pakistanis are totally oblivious to the risks of consanguinity?

I didn’t say that they were oblivious to the risks. Many Muslim leaders are trying to reduce the rates but our government has declined to give them the backing of the law which would speed things up considerably as they are making painfully slow progress which just means that more kids are being harmed. It was you that suggested Muslims would argue for the right to continue the practice regardless of the harms.

You know, if you look around the world, you'll find that all cows are animals. But more animals are not cows.

eh? You’ve called me and my Muslim friends liars and now this?? What have animals and cows got to do with this thread?

Everyone who has had FGM is part of a group.

Everyone who has been groomed is part of a group.

You can certainly talk about these social issues without extrapolating to wider assumptions about other groups they might belong to.

I didn't say "Muslims will", I alluded to the fact that some will. Muslims arent a hive mind and many if not most don't routinely marry first cousins anyway.

The point is that the fact that most of the countries that practice FGM are mostly Muslim doesn't mean that all Muslim countries (and in turn, people) practice FGM. It is a cultural practice best tackled by people from that culture as the front line.

The point is that the fact that most of the countries that practice FGM are mostly Muslim doesn't mean that all Muslim countries (and in turn, people) practice FGM. It is a cultural practice best tackled by people from that culture as the front line.
And what happens when those Muslims leave their country and take their practices with them. In a secular democracy it is not down to people from that culture to tackle it alone it is also the responsibility of the state, hence FGM is illegal in this country.
To deal effectively with this there needs to be an acknowledgement that cultural practices and beliefs relate to particular groups within Islam and that we need to speak clearly and honestly about them in order to deal with them.
An Islamophobia definition will allow any challenge to cultural practices and beliefs cover. Is that what the moderate Muslims want? Many of them are firmly against this definition. It certainly gives them no protection in speaking out.

Again youve slipped into speaking about it as a Muslim issue and so I have to assume you can't comprehend the written word very well.

They will belong to many groups. It's unhelpful to only consider them as one, homogenous group.

This discussion reminds me of the so-called "benefit bashing" threads. No one can discuss what may be a legitimate and rational concern because people get hung up on their own personal experience and see any sort of criticism of the welfare system as a personal attack on them.

Well if you want to talk about the issue that unites those people, it would be FGM or grooming. Not uses colgate, has brown hair, or was born in England.

Yes, and to understand why those people were subject to that, we need to know much more about them? That's also only reacting to a harm that has already been done, rather than trying to prevent it occurring in the first place.

I didn't say "Muslims will", I alluded to the fact that some will.

Where have I mentioned that you did?

many if not most don't routinely marry first cousins anyway.

In some areas, particularly among Pakistani Muslims, first cousin marriage is 55%-65%. It’s part of the ‘clan’ system to consolidate money and power.

The point is that the fact that most of the countries that practice FGM are mostly Muslim doesn't mean that all Muslim countries (and in turn, people) practice FGM.

Nobody has said ALL Muslim countries do it. In fact I have repeatedly, even in capital letters said ‘Not All Muslims’ so have no idea why you keep repeating this irrelevant point.

It is a cultural practice best tackled by people from that culture as the front line.

So what about the British girls, Muslim and otherwise who suffer this barbaric practice? Are we allowed to deal with them? Which ‘cultures’ are you referring to? Is Islam one of them? Do you think that if we are trying to persuade specific groups not to mutilate their young girls, it would be helpful to understand who they are so we can talk to them direct? Or do you think we should just put out a generalised advert to raise awareness?

The ‘front line’ people in various ‘cultures’ aren’t doing such a good job in stopping it at the minute don’t you think?

OK - every human is a unique individual. So what is this thing called Muslim, does it actually exist and what does it signify.
Who has the right to call themselves a Muslim?
How can you have a definition of Islamophobia when Islam is a whirling kaleidoscope of ideas, beliefs, ethnicities and practices which can't be articulated.
And yet people are killed, executed, imprisoned every day for Musliming wrong.

Islam isn't a culture. I suggest you learn more about the differences between culture and religion before you engage in these conversations. Islam isn't even an ethnoreligion.

Yet nowhere did pp say it was ONLY a Muslim issue and as we are on a thread talking about making free speech unlawful only in relation to Muslims, I think PPs point is a very good one.

I notice you didn’t answer my question about our Home Secretary and whether she is allowed to call out bad behaviour from Muslims?