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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

No child is born in the wrong body - Kemi Badenoch. Letter to Wes Streeting

355 replies

IwantToRetire · 26/11/2025 01:06

Saw this being shared on facebook. Quote:

No child is born in the wrong body.

I cannot believe we are back to square one, with NHS England backing an experimental trial of puberty blockers on healthy, vulnerable children, ignoring the damage already done.

The No1 rule of medicine is "do no harm".
This is activist ideology masquerading as research.

I'm urging MPs of all parties to sign this letter from me and Shadow Health Secretary Stuart Andrew for Daventry, calling for Wes Streeting to step in and stop this trial before more damage is done to children who are too young to understand what they are doing to themselves.

https://www.facebook.com/kemibadenoch/posts/pfbid02c3rSBKCtNCY5qHeLVtJN94j4MhB7fZnoW159VXbzJUBdrMrDDbC3C4v6KX3W7MEbl

No child is born in the wrong body - Kemi Badenoch. Letter to Wes Streeting
No child is born in the wrong body - Kemi Badenoch. Letter to Wes Streeting
OP posts:
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10
Gettingbysomehow · 26/11/2025 09:38

As far as I am concerned they are experimenting on children like the nazis did to try and prove their agenda thus maiming them for life.

Shortshriftandlethal · 26/11/2025 09:39

DrBlackbird · 26/11/2025 08:58

‼️

Really!

I do wonder if he is genuine in his recent conversion to common sense...or is he simply supremely ambitious?

EasternStandard · 26/11/2025 09:41

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 26/11/2025 09:21

Cass suggested a trial. The trouble is, this trial won't result in clear evidence either way, and it is unethical. Is there any trial that would be ethical? I can't see how such a trial could be designed.

We should give up the idea a trial on children in this way is in any way ethical.

Surely you can see that @EmilyinEverton?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 26/11/2025 09:47

Just caught a clip of Helen Joyce (not clear who was interviewing her) who summed things up very neatly: “Being male is not an illness, being female is not an illness”.

This trial of a drug that will physically alter a child’s body is unethical, because there is nothing, physically, to treat.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 09:48

EmilyinEverton · 26/11/2025 08:07

General suicide risk factors are evidenced based conclusions that you can freely google for research on.

I believe that Chase Strangio clarified that suicides within the group of people who have transgender identities are rare, in court for the US v. Skrmetti case before Christmas.

Suicidality is high and spreading misinformation about completed suicides in a specific group is not a response that likely lowers that suicidality, is it? So, why do people keep leveraging suicide and suicidality prevention in the public sphere as a means to support treatment, when the reality is that suicide is thankfully rare and at rates comparable to people with the same comorbidities as those patients?

That is irresponsible and is using misinformation.

In any case, Strangio admitted that there was currently no evidence that gender affirming treatment lowered suicide numbers.

“Strangio said: “What I think that is referring to is there is no evidence in some—in the studies that this treatment reduces completed suicide. And the reason for that is completed suicide, thankfully and admittedly, is rare and we’re talking about a very small population of individuals with studies that don’t necessarily have completed suicides within them.”

“However, there are multiple studies, long-term longitudinal studies that do show that there is a reduction in—in suicidality . . .”

https://www.city-journal.org/article/aclu-attorney-confesses-transgender-suicide-claim-is-a-myth

What Strangio said has been clarified over the past years in multiple countries not just the USA. Concerningly, suicide numbers are not shown to decrease with the current gender affirming care recommendations. Hence why there is so much discussion about those treatment recommendations.

ACLU Attorney Confesses: Transgender-Suicide Claim is a Myth

Arguing before the Supreme Court, Chase Strangio concedes that suicide is “thankfully and admittedly rare” among transgender-identifying people.

https://www.city-journal.org/article/aclu-attorney-confesses-transgender-suicide-claim-is-a-myth

SexRealismBeliefs · 26/11/2025 09:49

@EmilyinEverton - in order to have any constructive debate on this you may wish to:

  • not throw out emotive statements around suicide as that’s often what stifles debate on this subject
  • offer evidence like to many posters instead of saying just google it - lack of any evidence on your part may be there is no evidence or you may not have a broad knowledge on the scientific research into this subject
  • instead of broadcasting - offer some response to posters making valid points

Those that believe in trans genderism are rather in the same boat as people who believe in trans racialism.

They don’t have much research into the subject to rely on and as debate has been stifled there has been (in my personal opinion) a lack of intellectual rigor on those who believe in ‘trans’ anything.

It is important for all sides to have introspection as often lack of introspection leads to myopia.

LikeAHandleInTheWind · 26/11/2025 09:50

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

The key questions are what happens to children with the condition of interest if untreated, and what are the currently available treatments. If a condition is life limiting and there are no effective treatments then it would be considered ethical to trial experimental therapies on compassionate grounds - to be blunt, you're going to die soon with usual care so you have nothing to loss. Similarly a high risk, low benefit treatment is justified when the alternative is death/ severe disability.

None of these arguments are applicable to gender dysphoria - untreated most spontaneously resolve. The 'worst case' outcome is having persistent gender dysphoria and significant mental health problems in adulthood - and there is nothing to suggest that puberty blockers help either outcome, in fact depression is a known side effect of these drugs.

SexRealismBeliefs · 26/11/2025 09:50

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 09:48

I believe that Chase Strangio clarified that suicides within the group of people who have transgender identities are rare, in court for the US v. Skrmetti case before Christmas.

Suicidality is high and spreading misinformation about completed suicides in a specific group is not a response that likely lowers that suicidality, is it? So, why do people keep leveraging suicide and suicidality prevention in the public sphere as a means to support treatment, when the reality is that suicide is thankfully rare and at rates comparable to people with the same comorbidities as those patients?

That is irresponsible and is using misinformation.

In any case, Strangio admitted that there was currently no evidence that gender affirming treatment lowered suicide numbers.

“Strangio said: “What I think that is referring to is there is no evidence in some—in the studies that this treatment reduces completed suicide. And the reason for that is completed suicide, thankfully and admittedly, is rare and we’re talking about a very small population of individuals with studies that don’t necessarily have completed suicides within them.”

“However, there are multiple studies, long-term longitudinal studies that do show that there is a reduction in—in suicidality . . .”

https://www.city-journal.org/article/aclu-attorney-confesses-transgender-suicide-claim-is-a-myth

What Strangio said has been clarified over the past years in multiple countries not just the USA. Concerningly, suicide numbers are not shown to decrease with the current gender affirming care recommendations. Hence why there is so much discussion about those treatment recommendations.

Thanks @Helleofabore - just googling it and understanding the information in google does help ☺️

ThatBlackCat · 26/11/2025 09:54

EmilyinEverton · 26/11/2025 07:25

As opposed to chronic depression, anxiety, suicidality & suicide?

I feel for Dr Cass & clinicians because they are put in very difficult positions where the consequences can be a life of misery or can be fatal. Parent's begging for help to save their children's lives can't be an easy thing to deal with.

Edited

Most of these 'trans' children simply have depression and anxiety (and two thirds have Autism) , not gender dysphoria. They are not treating the actual causes.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 09:56

This paper is well worth a read, it is from 2021, about the issue that clinicians have with children who have been coached by parents, peers, support groups and media influence.

How are the clinicians deciding what children need with this sort of disruption of their diagnosis process?

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

Published April 22, 2021
Kasia Kozlowska, Georgia McClure et al

Australian children and adolescents with gender dysphoria: Clinical presentations and challenges experienced by a multidisciplinary team and gender service

Part of the conclusion

Our findings indicate that engagement with families, a trauma-informed model of mental health care, and ongoing discourse pertaining to the effects of unresolved trauma and loss need to be part of all gender dysphoria clinics and the services with which they collaborate. Because of their impact on subjective well-being and the development of the self, specific loss and trauma events present crucial opportunities for both long-term psychotherapy and more immediate, targeted treatments. The move to a more comprehensive, holistic model of care—one that takes into account the individual’s developmental history and the experiences that make up that history—has also been echoed in the work of other clinician-researchers (D’Angelo, 2020a; Entwistle, 2019; Giovanardi et al., 2018; Kozlowska et al., 2021; Williamson, 2019).

Our study found that the children and families who came to the clinic had clear, preformed expectations: most often, children and families wanted a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to be provided or confirmed, together with referral to endocrinology services to pursue medical treatment of gender dysphoria. Parents (vs. children) also largely came with the same expectations, though they were more likely to be interested in incorporating holistic (biopsychosocial) elements, including treatment of mental health comorbidities, family support/therapy, and long-term psychotherapy for the child. It was our impression that these expectations had been shaped by the dominant sociopolitical discourse—the gender affirmative model. It will be interesting to track the expectations of children and families in the years to come as sociopolitical discourses become more varied and diverse and as the voices are heard of both those who have done well and those who not done well via the medical pathway.

Our study also found that despite the high rates of family conflict, relationship breakdowns, parental mental illness, and maltreatment (see Table 3)—and our own clinical perspective that both individual and family work were indicated for the majority of families—few families rated themselves as being in a clinically severe range on self-report (SCORE-15). Coupled with the dominant sociopolitical discourse—the gender affirmative model that prioritizes the medical treatment pathway—it is not surprising that the large majority of children and families were not motivated to engage in or to remain engaged in ongoing therapy. These data bring three important phenomena into focus. First, when children and families were given the space and structure to tell the child’s developmental story—nested in the story of the family—they were able to identify and provide a detailed narrative of the key issues that had contributed to the child’s presentation and distress. Without this space and structure, the issues remain undeclared and unaddressed. Second, some families—but also some clinicians—function within a non-holistic (non-biopsychosocial) framework where the child’s developmental experiences are disconnected from their clinical presentation. This non-holistic framework is likely to promote a healthcare delivery model that dehumanizes the child (by not examining the child’s and family’s lived experience) and that promotes medical solutions (correcting the identity/body mismatch) for a problem that is much more complex. Third, as noted earlier, our experience suggests that, insofar as the gender affirmative model is taken as equivalent to medical intervention, clinicians (including ourselves) who work in gender services are coming under increasing pressure to put aside their own holistic (biopsychosocial) model of care, and to compromise their own ethical standards, by engaging in a tick-the-box treatment process. Such an approach does not adequately address a broad range of psychological, family, and social issues and puts patients at risk of adverse future outcomes and clinicians at risk of future legal action.

Greyskybluesky · 26/11/2025 09:58

Shortshriftandlethal · 26/11/2025 07:29

That's because the evidence was not collected or collated. There must be hundreds of young people who passed through the Tavistock over the years who could be traced - given the will.

A trans-identifying poster who used to bore us all to death regularly post on here would be an ideal candidate, having been treated 25 years ago. However, they admitted when pressed that no follow-up studies were being done or long-term evidence collated.

This person has set themself up on social media as the poster child for these drugs and is therefore not hard to trace!

SexRealismBeliefs · 26/11/2025 09:58

Datun · 26/11/2025 09:20

98% of children who started on puberty blockers went on to cross sex hormones. They will be unable to conceive, because their anatomy doesn't develop.

This was the problem highlighted by Jazz Jennings. That when he wanted a neo vagina, they couldn't make one out of his penis, because it was the penis of a prepubescent and there wasn't enough material.

I mean Jazz Jennings 🙃

InfoSecInTheCity · 26/11/2025 09:59

EmilyinEverton · 26/11/2025 05:23

And yet the Cass Report recommended the trial so it sounds like they weren't sure either way in the end.

I'm not a medical expert but perhaps since the drug was already widely used for decades for precocious puberty (a condition my niece suffered from & went on to have children after being on puberty blockers) & off label usage is routine in medical treatments, it passed medical ethical scrutiny for trial. Serious potential side effects are common with many drugs including mental health drugs prescribed to children for ADHD.

In any case, political interference in medical treatment is very concerning however you feel about gender affirming care.

Edited

This discussion point is used a lot, that puberty blockers are used in precocious puberty so must be ok, and I can understand why people have come to tha conclusion, but it misses a huge and very important set of considerations.

Precocious puberty is:
A) a provable medical condition, hormone levels and symptoms such as hair growth . We know for sure which children have this medical condition and treat them for it. That is not the case for gender dysphoria.
B) it is a damaging medical condition, precocious puberty if left to continue causes damage to the body. Puberty blockers have risks of long term damage but when weighed against the damage that the puberty at such as early age will cause those risks are deemed acceptable. That cannot be said for gender dysphoric which may or may not be real and which the child may or may not grow out of. In fact if ‘successful’ then what puberty blockers do for children with GD is to lead to cross sex hormones which themselves cause damage to the body and put the child in a position of being an adult with irreversible damage and being a patient for the rest of their lives, infertility, uterine dysfunction, heart damage.

puberty blockers for precocious puberty and puberty blockers for gender dysphoria are not like-for-like.

ThatBlackCat · 26/11/2025 10:01

EmilyinEverton · 26/11/2025 07:37

According to meta analysis of studies by WPATH's in SOC 8 the treatments help.

Ultimately, its a consensus of medical experts that are only qualified in these areas.

Citing the much discredited WPATH (haven't you read the WPATH Files?) shows that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about sadly. No one would cite WPATH as any form of authority with a straight face. Their standing in the medical sphere and in public has been decimated and they've been thoroughly humiliated and rebuked.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 10:03

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 09:35

Maybe you should speak to Polly Carmichael.

This document contains some important information. One of which is that even in 2018, Polly Carmichael recognised there were signs of social contagion and influence from misinformed sources.

March 2018: Polly Carmichael had told an ACAMH conference:
“without a doubt there are some young people who are finding a community, friends and all sorts of things through joining a group who have an interest around gender and I think that for some of those we would be very foolish not to acknowledge that it's probably the case that they are caught up in something rather than it being an expression of something that has arisen from within. So there is a lot of concern.”

“I have been shocked by some of the things that are swilling around the internet that young people have access to. There are numerous groups on Reddit and Tumblr that many of the young people that are attending our service are going onto..maybe it's also the dissing of expertise, in a way, so that there is a feeling that this is about who I am, so what does anyone else know? It's a very odd situation in some way.`”

www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Medical-Scandal-at-the-Tavistock.pdf

Oh... and if you don't know who Polly Carmichael is, just google her.... I think if Polly Carmichael, and clinicians from Australia were raising this as an issue, maybe the world should have taken note.

Question is, why didn't they?

And why dismiss the issue instead of studying it further? Why reject studies about the issue being done on the grounds that they would be 'transphobic' to do? Particularly if those studies showed that there was NO social contagion.

Seems counter productive to have rejected those study briefs I would have thought.

TheKeatingFive · 26/11/2025 10:09

A crucial difference is that puberty blockers for precocious puberty are used up until the time that normal puberty would occur and are then stopped. The child then goes through puberty.

For 'gender affirming care' they are used for a longer period, across the period when puberty would normally happen and I am not sure there is much info as to what happens when they are stopped at an age later that regular puberty begins (16+).

One of the reasons why there is no information about that is because children put on puberty blockers for 'GAC' have almost invariably gone straight on to opposite sex hormones. Understanding why that has been the case should also be a priority.

ThatBlackCat · 26/11/2025 10:18

EmilyinEverton · 26/11/2025 07:57

There's no evidence yet of a social contagion with the only study on the matter (ROGD) being discredited because of massive flaws in methodology.

Just assuming a theory isn't how the scientific method works.

Schools reporting 60% per class as identifying as trans or non-binary is proof of a social contagion. We don't need a 'study' to acknowledge common sense!

No child is born in the wrong body - Kemi Badenoch. Letter to Wes Streeting
No child is born in the wrong body - Kemi Badenoch. Letter to Wes Streeting
Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 10:19

EmilyinEverton · 26/11/2025 08:00

The WPATH files have been thoroughly discedited.

https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/fact-check-216-instances-of-factual

Did you even read the WPATH files that were leaked? You seem very quick to dismiss them.

You even posted Erin Read, a male person with a sociology background - so not a clinician or an 'expert' that you have insisted be the people we should be taking seriously, who has numerous wrong interpretations throughout that piece of writing.

Would you instead like to post links to robust evidence where it has been proven that children's mental health long term outcomes has had significant improvement with treatments that make their bodies fit their philosophical belief (beliefs that do not reflect material reality) about themselves?

What other philosophical beliefs about themselves that do not reflect material reality should children be given treatments with irreversible side effects that may also be life limiting and life shortening for? Any other philosophical beliefs come to mind?

ThatBlackCat · 26/11/2025 10:20

EmilyinEverton · 26/11/2025 08:00

The WPATH files have been thoroughly discedited.

https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/fact-check-216-instances-of-factual

Er, no it hasn't. And 'Erin' is a biological male with an agenda, and caught out lying. Only a very gullible person would believe their lies. In fact, there is a link somewhere DEBUNKING their 'debunk'.

ThatBlackCat · 26/11/2025 10:23

EmilyinEverton · 26/11/2025 08:04

You would need peer reviewed research to draw any sound conclusions just like the standard puberty blockers was held to.

We have many peer reviewed research, and they all point to harms. https://archive.is/BqfQ5

Datun · 26/11/2025 10:25

TheKeatingFive · 26/11/2025 10:09

A crucial difference is that puberty blockers for precocious puberty are used up until the time that normal puberty would occur and are then stopped. The child then goes through puberty.

For 'gender affirming care' they are used for a longer period, across the period when puberty would normally happen and I am not sure there is much info as to what happens when they are stopped at an age later that regular puberty begins (16+).

One of the reasons why there is no information about that is because children put on puberty blockers for 'GAC' have almost invariably gone straight on to opposite sex hormones. Understanding why that has been the case should also be a priority.

Understanding why that has been the case should also be a priority.

it's a circle that can't be completed, isn't it?

If left alone 80% of children resolve the issue, but if put on blockers, 98% of them carry on.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 10:29

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Were they precocious puberty patients or patients taking the drugs for their identity? Because there is a significant difference.

The 'sterilisation' aspect comes from female patients going straight onto testosterone programs. And with testosterone comes atrophy of the female reproductive organs. Plus, there is significant concerns about female people who have taken testosterone having children, and this is still being documented from the athletes from East Germany and their families.

There is also a difference of course between male and female patients.

This study is of course about the impact on male patients.

Puberty Blocker and Aging Impact on Testicular Cell States and Function

Varshini Murugesh, Megan Ritting, Salem Salem, Syed Mohammed Musheer Aalam, Joaquin Garcia, Asma J Chattha, Yulian Zhao, David JHF Knapp, Guruprasad Kalthur, Candace F Granberg, Nagarajan Kannan

March 27, 2024.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.03.23.586441v1.full

Abstract

Spermatogonial stem cell (SSC) acquisition of meiotogenetic state during puberty to produce genetically diverse gametes is blocked by drugs collectively referred as ‘puberty blocker’ (PB). Investigating the impact of PB on juvenile SSC state and function is challenging due to limited tissue access and clinical data. Herein, we report largest clinically annotated juvenile testicular biorepository with all children with gender dysphoria on chronic PB treatment highlighting shift in pediatric patient demography in US. At the tissue level, we report mild-to-severe sex gland atrophy in PB treated children. We developed most extensive integrated single-cell RNA dataset to date (>100K single cells; 25 patients), merging both public and novel (52 month PB-treated) datasets, alongside innovative computational approach tailed for germ cells and evaluated the impact of PB and aging on SSC. We report novel constitutional ranges for each testicular cell type across the entire age spectrum, distinct effects of treatments on prepubertal vs adult SSC, presence of spermatogenic epithelial cells exhibiting post-meiotic-state, irrespective of age, puberty status, or PB treatment. Further, we defined distinct effects of PB and aging on testicular cell lineage composition, and SSC meiotogenetic state and function. Using single cell data from prepubertal and young adult, we were able to accurately predict sexual maturity based both on overall cell type proportions, as well as on gene expression patterns within each major cell type. Applying these models to a PB-treated patient that they appeared pre-pubertal across the entire tissue. This combined with the noted gland atrophy and abnormalities from the histology data raise a potential concern regarding the complete ’reversibility’ and reproductive fitness of SSC. The biorepository, data, and research approach presented in this study provide unique opportunity to explore the impact of PB on testicular reproductive health.

And an article

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13276501/Mayo-Clinic-puberty-blockers-trans-kids-fertility-cancer-medicine.html

Mayo Clinic say puberty blockers hurt trans kids' fertility

'We provide unprecedented histological evidence revealing detrimental pediatric testicular sex gland responses' to the drugs, geneticist Nagarajan Kannan and others wrote.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13276501/Mayo-Clinic-puberty-blockers-trans-kids-fertility-cancer-medicine.html

endofthelinefinally · 26/11/2025 10:31

Previous posters have explained this, but I would like to add:
I was a research nurse and clinical trials coordinator for 12 years.
The NHS cancer treatment strategy is that all patients must be offered the chance to participate in clinical trials. It is a specific strategy and trials are offered within strict screening criteria. These are seriously ill patients for whom a place in a trial may be their only chance of survival.
A puberty blocker trial on otherwise healthy children is light years away from cancer trials.
Having written all the associated documents and applied for ethics approval many, many times, I cannot see how a trial of dangerous, life changing drugs on healthy children, could possibly have got through the process. I just can't.

Helleofabore · 26/11/2025 10:31

ThatBlackCat · 26/11/2025 10:20

Er, no it hasn't. And 'Erin' is a biological male with an agenda, and caught out lying. Only a very gullible person would believe their lies. In fact, there is a link somewhere DEBUNKING their 'debunk'.

The very fact that Reed states that Reed is a woman and a mother is a 'lie' from the very start.

ThatCleaningLady · 26/11/2025 10:33

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