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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/11/2025 22:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025

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49
DrProfessorYaffle · 08/12/2025 14:04

ProfessorBinturong · 08/12/2025 13:39

Looks like an appeal ground to me.

This makes me so angry and sad.

I, as a woman, and my daughters as girls, have no way if being assured of single sex privacy at all.

Hooray for all the 'be kinders' (hollow laugh)

AreYouSureAskedNaomi · 08/12/2025 14:04

MarieDeGournay · 08/12/2025 14:03

There is a humungous amount of references to other cases in the middle of the judgement, relevant to NHSF's action, but when it comes to DrU's actions, it seems to come down to how DrU looked and spoke when giving evidence.
That is just my impression, on what I've read so far. And I am really really trying to be objective.

It comes across as if he must be protected and his career must be saved at all costs. Even at the expense of reality, truth and justice

BendoftheBeginning · 08/12/2025 14:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/12/2025 13:44

Is he deliberately passing it up the line?

This is my impression. The lower court judges want the appeals court to make a binding decision on how to handle these specific types of situations.

Majorconcern · 08/12/2025 14:05

Helen Joyce says ample grounds for appeal

FrauDoktor · 08/12/2025 14:05

I'm so disappointed - for Sandie and in general.

Ohpleasegoawaynow · 08/12/2025 14:05

NHS Fife statement is playing down the significance of the ruling as well.

RoyalCorgi · 08/12/2025 14:08

They really do seem to have fundamentally misunderstood the Supreme Court ruling.

I also feel angry about the claim that Upton was more "credible" than Sandie, which is nonsense. I suspect Sandie was emotional because she was clearly distressed and traumatised, whereas of course Upton, as the cause of the distress, was able to remain perfectly calm.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/12/2025 14:08

SwirlyGates · 08/12/2025 14:04

I'm getting confused. The BBC headline and reporting, which was the first news I saw ("Tribunal says nurse in trans changing room row was harassed by NHS Fife but dismisses other claims") present it as mostly a win for NHS Fife and Upton. But the Daily Record and Herald preset it as a win for Sandie: "Sandie Peggie wins trans row tribunal against NHS Fife in landmark ruling". Others say she "wins part..."

Maybe it's the BBC reporting that's out of step...

The judge found that grievance process that fife subjected her to was wrong - that was the win. It also found that Upton looked like a woman so could use the female changing room, that Sandi was the only one that complained, and that she was a big meanie who was nasty to Upton - those were the losses

Notanorthener · 08/12/2025 14:08

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/12/2025 13:56

The press summary is quite useful:

"The Tribunal noted that the Act did not provide a test to apply where there was a
conflict between different protected characteristics held by two employees in such
circumstances. It held that in order to make the Act workable a test was required to
enable an employer to make a decision on use of single sex spaces that was lawful.
The test the Tribunal concluded should be applied was one of objective justification,
derived from the Supreme Court decision in Bank Mellat v HM Treasury (No. 2)
[2014] AC 700.

It considered that a number of factors required to be weighed in the balance including
the options that were available to the employer, the extent to which the trans person
had changed physiological attributes of sex, how the trans person appeared to others,
the extent to which there were complaints from other staff, what the employer knew
or ought to have known, and what the options for use of facilities were. It held that
initially it had been lawful for the first respondent to grant permission as there had not
been an indication of complaint about it, but that once a complaint was made by Mrs
Peggie alternatives should have been addressed and the permission should have
been revoked on an interim basis. The permission became lawful when a solution was
later found, which meant that the claimant and second respondent were not at work
together and not therefore using the changing room at the same time, and as no other
staff made any complaint about the use of the changing room by the second
respondent."

IANAL but this seems all wrong and against the SC judgement

This is an interesting analysis as it seems to imply that provision of single sex spaces is a popularity contest - if “everyone” is ok with TW in women’s spaces then it shld be allowed. I think this is the new strategy of the GI crowd - see also the recent consultation on the Hampstead ponds where the aim is to collect data that enough women are ok with TW in their spaces.

I think this specific point will be appealed - it’s akin to saying it’s ok to discriminate against others if everyone in the group agrees to the discrimination.

It’s also very odd that they didn’t give the parties the judgement in advance - who is the President the judge referred to that he would be consulting? Having only recently read Women won’t Wheesht, I’m sorry to say that the whole of Scottish public life/sector has been corrupted/captured by GI theory. There is still a very very long road ahead to bring back women’s rights.

edited for SPAG

SexRealismBeliefs · 08/12/2025 14:08

Its so fucking ridiculous that women who identify as men as being erased in this judgment.

Women - don't have rights as women or as trans identified people. Idiots.

The Tribunal will use the terms “trans woman” being a person assigned male by sex at birth who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in the context of transition to female, and “trans man” being a person assigned as male by sex at birth who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in the context of transition to male, or the generic “trans person”, although those terms do not appear in the Act. It broadly follows the terminology used by the Supreme Court in FWS

Tallisker · 08/12/2025 14:08

Well fuck-a-doodle-do. This seems terrible to me. And unbelievable. I only saw a few hours of the live stream, but it was all DU. My jaw was on the floor at some of his answers to NC’s questioning.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 08/12/2025 14:08

I could weep.

MarieDeGournay · 08/12/2025 14:09

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/12/2025 13:59

For fucks fucking sake

I'm genuinely aghast that anyone could haven't through that and that SP was less credible than Upton

he'sa man man man and he doesn't belong in women's anything, it really is that simple

There were some specific examples of what was seen to be lack of credibility in SP's evidence, and it's fair enough to point them out.

But the contrast with how DrU's evidence is perceived is very obvious, any issues with his credibility seem to be waved away.

HappyNewTaxYear · 08/12/2025 14:09

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/12/2025 13:50

This in the "Facts" section indicates the judges bias IMO

"The second respondent is not a person who is obviously male from
external appearance".

Upton does not even remotely pass. And I'm not saying that to be mean, some TW do pass quite well, especially in a still photograph. Upton does not.

Sorry?! Is the judge blind?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/12/2025 14:10

Notanorthener · 08/12/2025 14:08

This is an interesting analysis as it seems to imply that provision of single sex spaces is a popularity contest - if “everyone” is ok with TW in women’s spaces then it shld be allowed. I think this is the new strategy of the GI crowd - see also the recent consultation on the Hampstead ponds where the aim is to collect data that enough women are ok with TW in their spaces.

I think this specific point will be appealed - it’s akin to saying it’s ok to discriminate against others if everyone in the group agrees to the discrimination.

It’s also very odd that they didn’t give the parties the judgement in advance - who is the President the judge referred to that he would be consulting? Having only recently read Women won’t Wheesht, I’m sorry to say that the whole of Scottish public life/sector has been corrupted/captured by GI theory. There is still a very very long road ahead to bring back women’s rights.

edited for SPAG

Edited

It struck me as very similar to the Kelly v Leonardo case where she was the only person who complained which meant she was the only person who was affected

puppymaddness · 08/12/2025 14:10

So the part she won was about procedures and delays, but the tribunal did not find that she was discriminated against because DU was allowed to use the changer?

This is not nearly so bad as I had feared.

SexRealismBeliefs · 08/12/2025 14:10

So the judge calls this person credible.

A medical doctor born male thinks that he is now biologically sexed as female..... credible. Certifiable maybe, credible never.

  1. The second respondent believed that the second respondent had the gender and sex of a female (the sex of the second respondent under section 11 is addressed below), gave evidence on that basis, and wished to use the term “cis woman” for a person assigned female at birth and “cis man” for a person assigned male at birth.
BezMills · 08/12/2025 14:10

There was a lot in there about the expert evidence by Speccie Loddie (Jim Borwick/Borthwick) and the contrasting evidence from NHS Fife and their "IT" "Expert". The Fifer and I both have strong opinions on that, which I'll come back to in the future.

For now I think the following paras really capture the essence of the judgement. That Big Sond is not at all convinced that Single Sex changing rooms are legally required. He's shilly shallying about that, very much not prepared to make the call himself. "potentially but not necessarily lawful under the Act to permit a trans woman to use a female only space"

I mean could be, mebbe, might no, might be aye, ahm no sure, who's tae say likes ken?

We concluded that it is potentially but not necessarily lawful under the Act to permit a trans woman to use a female only space, such as the changing room, in the context of work. We considered that the construction of the Act in light of the Supreme Court decision relevant to this case was that the claimant can argue both before an employer and at the Tribunal the claims of direct and indirect discrimination and of harassment as she has made in this claim if a trans woman is granted permission to use the female changing room, but also that the second respondent can make arguments both before an employer and at the Tribunal of indirect discrimination and harassment if excluded from that same changing room. How an employer may attempt to resolve these competing arguments and the protected characteristics on which they are based we address below.

In our view the claimant’s attempts to persuade us that the Regulations required a single sex space from which all biological males required to be excluded because the definitions in FWS should be read across to the 1992 Regulations went beyond an issue we are able to determine, as it is a matter arising only under the criminal law.
859.
The 1992 Regulations do not have a definition of men or women. FWS does not determine the meaning of words in the 1992 Regulations. As stated above its analysis of the meaning of words such as “woman” was specifically confined to the 2010 Act itself. The terms of that decision therefore contradict the claimant’s argument.
860.
There are arguments both for and against the claimant’s position that the same approach should be followed, and for and against the respondents’ position that a definition of women which is inclusive of those who are trans women is appropriate in order to construe the 1992 Regulations consistently with Article 8. In our view these arguments are not ones that we can competently address.

ProfessorBinturong · 08/12/2025 14:11

MyrtleLion · 08/12/2025 14:03

It has misunderstood FWS.

It assumes that trans identifying men had the right tonuse women's single sex facilities and so taking that away from them is a breach of their equality rights. FFS

I agree. Complete misunderstanding of FWS. Which is at least a clear 'Go directly to appeal. Do not pass Go, do not collect £200'.

SwirlyGates · 08/12/2025 14:11

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/12/2025 14:08

The judge found that grievance process that fife subjected her to was wrong - that was the win. It also found that Upton looked like a woman so could use the female changing room, that Sandi was the only one that complained, and that she was a big meanie who was nasty to Upton - those were the losses

"looked like a woman" - obviously we all disagree about that, but in any case that part has to be a completely wrong interpretation of the law. Doesn't matter what he looks like he's still a man.

WantToLiveLikeWomenPeople · 08/12/2025 14:11

So it’s ok for a man to effectively say “take your clothes off in front of me or I’ll get you sacked” as long as he is wearing make up.

Right. Get to fuck.

SeniorWranglerStanfreyPock · 08/12/2025 14:12

Out of the country with limited wifi so missed the moment! Hmm, mixed bag to pick over here, but not all bad at least.

ThatsALeafJean · 08/12/2025 14:12

This is on NHS Fife staff intranet.
Misleading & skewed wording I would say… glossing over fact they have been found to have harassed an employee!
and to describe their focus on ensuring NHS Fife remains a “supportive and inclusive environment”?! It has just been found that this is not the case it is has been harassing one of its employees!

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55
Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/12/2025 14:12

HappyNewTaxYear · 08/12/2025 14:09

Sorry?! Is the judge blind?

I mean Upton is obviously male and sounds male

I do not believe for one second the judge thinks Upton is female, he just believes he's not a proper man either so ergo he must be a woman

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