Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why the NHS puberty blocker trial is appalling

1000 replies

Soontobe60 · 16/11/2025 14:43

Stella O’Malley from Genspect telling it like it is - that a state endorsed trial of puberty blockers for gender dysphoric children should NOT go ahead.
the NHS are not walking into this nightmare blindly - there are enough experts out there telling them what will happen happen to these children if they’re given these life changing drugs.
https://x.com/genspect/status/1989896741358113127?s=61&t=gKvvk-rWmOlYFGMZN8QVvQ

Genspect (@genspect) on X

In a conversation about the Next Generation, podcast host Elliot Bewick @elliotbewick talks with @stellaomalley3 : “This won't be puberty because their reproductive system won't be awakened, it will be a chemical insurgents into their body…and so they...

https://x.com/genspect/status/1989896741358113127?s=61&t=gKvvk-rWmOlYFGMZN8QVvQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
82
nicepotoftea · 25/11/2025 09:35

The letter is very clear and does not leave any room for Streeting to claim retrospectively that he didn't understand the problems with the study.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 25/11/2025 09:38

Marcus and Sue Evans are also signatories (along with many, MANY others) of this Memorandum of Understanding:

https://protectingpuberty.com

eta: Anyone sharing their concerns can also sign the MoU.

Protecting Puberty in Adolescent Development

A global coalition committed to safeguarding healthy pubertal development and children's right to an open future.

https://protectingpuberty.com

ArabellaSaurus · 25/11/2025 15:44

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/insurance_cover_pathways_trial

'1. Which insurer/insurance company is providing the “no fault liability insurance” cover referred to in the trial protocol (referenced above)? If multiple insurance providers/companies are providing this cover, please provide the details of all.

  1. Has a specific referral been made at any stage by King’s College London to the above insurance company (or insurance companies, if plural) in relation to this PATHWAYS trial?
  2. If a specific referral has been made by King’s College London in relation to this PATHWAYS trial, what information was provided to the insurance company/companies about the trial/study or any risks involved in the trial/study, what information (if any) was requested by the insurance company/companies in response, and were any specific insurance arrangements (including specific cover, additional premium charges, or specific bespoke insurance policy provisions) applied to King’s College London in relation to this particular trial/study?
  3. In the event of harm arising from study design, what maximum amount of compensation is permitted in total (i.e. for all claims related to this study/trial, combined) under the relevant insurance policy/policies?
  4. In the event of harm arising from study design, what maximum amounts of compensation are permitted per individual successful claimant under the relevant insurance policy/policies?
  5. Under the relevant insurance policy/policies, are there any maximum time periods/deadlines in place for insurance claims to be made for harm arising from study design after the conclusion of this study/trial? If so, please detail these.'
ProfessorIDareSay · 25/11/2025 15:50

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/25/doctors-puberty-blockers/

"Now – just to get those tedious disclaimers out of the way – any parent thinking of handing over their child for the NHS Pathways Trial should know that puberty blockers have been found to have the odd side effect. Reductions in bone density and fertility. Menopausal-like symptoms. Changes in adult height. Long-term users have sometimes experienced metabolic disorders: weight gain, diabetes, that sort of thing. But nothing major.
Also, it probably bears mentioning that nobody quite knows what these drugs will do to your child’s brain. Some studies show potential risks to cognitive function. But until we have the guinea pigs to experiment on, how will we ever know for sure? So let’s set aside the fundamental principle of medicine – first do no wrong – and focus instead on how crucial this experimentation on underage children is for the future of anyone struggling with issues of self-identity. Let’s remember that when it comes to this issue, the end always justifies the means."

Access Restricted

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/25/doctors-puberty-blockers

PrettyDamnCosmic · 25/11/2025 15:58

ProfessorIDareSay · 25/11/2025 15:50

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/25/doctors-puberty-blockers/

"Now – just to get those tedious disclaimers out of the way – any parent thinking of handing over their child for the NHS Pathways Trial should know that puberty blockers have been found to have the odd side effect. Reductions in bone density and fertility. Menopausal-like symptoms. Changes in adult height. Long-term users have sometimes experienced metabolic disorders: weight gain, diabetes, that sort of thing. But nothing major.
Also, it probably bears mentioning that nobody quite knows what these drugs will do to your child’s brain. Some studies show potential risks to cognitive function. But until we have the guinea pigs to experiment on, how will we ever know for sure? So let’s set aside the fundamental principle of medicine – first do no wrong – and focus instead on how crucial this experimentation on underage children is for the future of anyone struggling with issues of self-identity. Let’s remember that when it comes to this issue, the end always justifies the means."

Here is the Archive version of the article

https://archive.ph/Kxr0p

moto748e · 25/11/2025 16:08

I thought it was generally accepted at the time of publication that the Cass Review pretty much was forced into suggesting a trial (as a sop?), otherwise the Report itself would never have got over the line in the face of so much opposition? But now there's time for a second thought, the climate is changed, WS is (largely) onboard. If this does go ahead, I can't help but see more court cases.

Kucinghitam · 25/11/2025 16:42

ArabellaSaurus · 25/11/2025 07:45

What is 'extreme' about discussing other conditions with relevant issues?

What is 'moderate' about suggesting those things should not be discussed?

Self-identification as The Reasonable Moderate One and self-identified fitness to arbitrate?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 25/11/2025 17:21

Wes Streeting has tweet-replied to Kemi Badenoch’s letter in which she condemned the study:

Wes Streeting

@wesstreeting
3h
I’ll reply formally and fully, but I’m surprised by this letter. The Conservatives commissioned the Cass Review and accepted its recommendations in full. I did, too, and am implementing it. I’m keen to maintain a cross-party approach on such a sensitive issue.

https://nitter.net/wesstreeting/status/1993315576228311522#m

moto748e · 25/11/2025 17:27

That's true, Wes, but do you think this trial, with the associated health risks for the participants (children!), is good to go, or not?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 25/11/2025 17:29

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 25/11/2025 17:21

Wes Streeting has tweet-replied to Kemi Badenoch’s letter in which she condemned the study:

Wes Streeting

@wesstreeting
3h
I’ll reply formally and fully, but I’m surprised by this letter. The Conservatives commissioned the Cass Review and accepted its recommendations in full. I did, too, and am implementing it. I’m keen to maintain a cross-party approach on such a sensitive issue.

https://nitter.net/wesstreeting/status/1993315576228311522#m

Stella O’Malley has replied to Wes:

Stella O'Malley

@stellaomalley3
2h
Cass made 32 recommendations. A more important Cass recommendation to carry out is the linkage study, why not find out how the first group of kids fared on puberty blockers? I know some of them regret it as I’ve met them through our detransition service @BeyondTransHelp nd
Nov 25, 2025 · 3:06 PM UTC

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 25/11/2025 17:34

And another reply, which quotes the Cass report:

Katinadoc

@katinadoc
2h
Cass p. 49 says: "An important principle in treatment trials is equipoise. This means that the researchers genuinely do not know which treatment is better - the existing treatment or the new treatment. If they have very strong reasons to believe the new treatment is better, or indeed worse, they cannot ethically carry out a trial. Occasionally a trial may be stopped early if it is obvious that the new treatment is causing harm or is strongly beneficial." There is very strong reason to believe that puberty blockers have an adverse impact on children. You cannot ethically carry out this trial. As Minister you are expected to act in the public interest and ensure polices do not endanger the public. If clinical advice (in this case a trial) is judged to cause harm, you have a duty to reject or modify it. Cc @KemiBadenoch

ArabellaSaurus · 25/11/2025 17:38

Kucinghitam · 25/11/2025 16:42

Self-identification as The Reasonable Moderate One and self-identified fitness to arbitrate?

Yep.

'A lot of the GC right wing politicians use sound bites around trans issues, the same they use to deny or minimise genuine conditions like autism or the worsening mental health of our youth generally - a ticking time bomb.

Anyone speaking with certainty right now about what's best is in my view an ideologue. We don't really know'

🤔

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 25/11/2025 19:21

Oh that sounds so bloody reasonable doesn't it..... 'we don't know'.

Well actually yes, we have a pretty good idea. And we have adults saying look at the damage this did to me, I regret this permanent harm provided by adults to a child to meet their temporary problem. Sane people don't risk permanently damaging some more children through medical experimentation to then be able to say 'well now we definitely do know.'

And Autism/disability sensitivity again - I note only appears when useful and propping up the narrative. Try and explain the issues for some Autistic people with pronouns/lying in the face of the evidence of their eyes, and for disabled people wanting same sex carers and that sensitivity will be gone like snow off a hot brick.

DrBlackbird · 25/11/2025 22:09

Seems like some posters are resistant to a fuller explanation or discussion of how to square the following circle?

First, there is the claim that some children will benefit from puberty blockers because their gender dysphoria - however defined - will persist past childhood.

These are precisely the children who might benefit from more medical intervention such as puberty blockers. That's why trials make sense.

But… second, going by this study, 79% of children with gender dysphoria will have their symptoms resolve without any treatment after they’ve gone through puberty.

Wallien & Cohen‑Kettenis (2008) study, which found that among 54 children followed into adolescence/early adulthood, only ~27% retained gender dysphoria or around the figure you state.

So - we are to conclude that all the children are exposed to life changing medical treatment to assuage the 25% who might feel better.

But we won’t know who will or won’t feel better until it’s too late for the majority that would’ve been fine without intervention but who will have also had the same negative health implications including sexual organs maldevelopment, cognitive impairment, and sterility.

We already have a treatment that is effective in ~85% of cases. We have no way at all of identifying the ~15% who are treatment-resistant, nor do I we know if their longterm prognosis is good if treated with GnRHas.

I just cannot get my head around how an ethical board approved this or why trials make sense? My god, I was grilled over potential negative impact of asking - just asking - students how they used generative artificial intelligence.

UtopiaPlanitia · 26/11/2025 01:19

Excellent analysis of the PATHWAYS trial:

https://www.quackometer.net/blog/2025/11/pathways-a-trial-built-on-missing-data-pseudoscience-and-quiet-cruelty.html

'The trial’s design guarantees we will learn almost nothing useful about puberty blockers themselves. Every single child (treatment arm and delayed arm) receives the same new package of psychosocial support: therapy, family work, psycho-education, regular clinic visits, the full comforting apparatus of being “in the system”. The only variable that changes is whether a child receives triptorelin injections now or in twelve months’ time.

That single difference in treatment timing is the sole thread we have to pull on if we want to isolate the specific effect of the drug. Yet the thread is buried under a dozen powerful confounders: the therapeutic alliance, the placebo effect of finally being believed, the nocebo effect in the delayed group who feel cruelly denied, the natural maturation that happens to every teenager over two years, regression to the mean, and the simple passage of time away from whatever acute crisis brought them to clinic in the first place.

Because the psychosocial support is constant and the drug is the only thing that moves, any observed change in mood, self-harm, or quality-of-life scores can be attributed to the counselling just as plausibly as to the hormone suppression. The trial has no mechanism for disentangling the two. It is rather like testing a new analgesic by giving every patient in the study the drugs and a daily massage and then wondering why both the drug group and the waiting-list group report less pain. The protocol may produce reams of numbers, but it is structurally incapable of telling us what the blockers actually do.

Any improvement in quality-of-life scores can therefore be attributed to the counselling, to placebo effects, to regression to the mean, or simply to the relief of finally being taken seriously. We will never know which. The delayed arm, meanwhile, starts the study believing they have been denied life-saving treatment. Nocebo effects and off-protocol self-sourcing of blockers are inevitable. The trial cannot separate these confounders any more than a non-blinded homeopathy trial can separate the effects of sugar pills from the therapist’s reassuring smile.

The follow-up in the trial is just two years. Yet, the major questions are about what happens to children as they mature into young adults and further. Peak bone mass is not reached until the late twenties. Fertility outcomes, late cognitive effects, and long-term cancer risks will remain unknown. The promise of “registry linkage pending further funding” is not a plan; it is an admission that the most important clinical questions have been postponed indefinitely.
Picture a 12-year-old girl who starts blockers under PATHWAYS this winter. By the time she is 30 she may never know what an orgasm feels like and will certainly never carry a pregnancy. That is not a rare side-effect from what we know already; it is the intended physiological outcome of the treatment this 12 year old is being invited to “consent” to.

A majority of the children in such clinics arrive with autism, histories of trauma, depression, or eating disorders. Almost all cannot yet imagine adult sexual relationships or parenthood. To ask them to consent to a pathway that carries a substantial risk of permanent infertility and anorgasmia is to ask them to consent to something they cannot meaningfully understand. The consent forms may be legally watertight; they are ethically threadbare.'
...

If PATHWAYS had been submitted to the Cass Review as one more observational study it would have been graded low quality and filed under “inconclusive”. Instead it has been granted the status of the definitive trial, the one that will finally settle the matter. It will do no such thing. At best it will generate numbers that can be spun either way. At worst it will provide a veneer of scientific respectability for continuing to offer puberty suppression to children on the basis of ideology rather than science and evidence.'

moto748e · 26/11/2025 01:24

Picture a 12-year-old girl who starts blockers under PATHWAYS this winter. By the time she is 30 she may never know what an orgasm feels like and will certainly never carry a pregnancy. That is not a rare side-effect from what we know already; it is the intended physiological outcome of the treatment this 12 year old is being invited to “consent” to.

Jeez, isn't that enough?

UtopiaPlanitia · 26/11/2025 01:47

Patrick Christys opinion on the new trial and short panel discussion:

And two other short videos discussing the trial:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rphhBz0MCnY

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d0urBqOwESw

UtopiaPlanitia · 26/11/2025 02:40

Can't sleep so I've been looking for more public comment/info/analysis on the trial. Most of it seems to be basic reporting that a trial will happen - perhaps more comment pieces will be published with time:

Helen Joyce discusses the trial in this Spectator interview:

The Health Editor at the Telegraph:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/25/nhs-puberty-blockers-trial-repeat-tavistock-whistleblowers/

The Political Editor:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/11/25/scrap-puberty-blocker-trial-harming-children-badenoch-nhs/

Celia Walden discussing what medics have told her about PBs:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/25/doctors-puberty-blockers/

US Article detailing what the trial will involve:
https://evrimagaci.org/gpt/uk-approves-controversial-puberty-blockers-trial-for-children-517419

Pharmaceutical Journal brief description of the trial:
https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/news/nhs-england-commissions-study-on-effects-of-puberty-blockers

The Daily Record:
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/health/scores-children-puberty-blockers-nhs-36290121

Benjamin Ryan (US journalist) outlining some concerns with the proposed trial:
https://benryan.substack.com/p/uks-nhs-to-launch-long-awaited-puberty

The Standard:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/children-nhs-pathways-experts-neuroscience-b1259266.html

AND 2024 article from Deborah Cohen theorising what the trial might look like:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyd2qe5kkjo

UtopiaPlanitia · 26/11/2025 03:10

There's discussion at the start of this video on Labour's 'Gender War' including discussion of the PB trial:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/uBQ-cnpJZz4?si=5tyDtjf5-3pfRcsR

OldCrone · 26/11/2025 05:19

Dr Cass has been widely quoted as saying this about the trial:

“My review uncovered a very weak evidence base for benefits from the use of puberty blockers for children and young people with gender dysphoria. In fact, some children had more negative than positive effects.

"However, given that there are clinicians, children and families who believe passionately in the beneficial effects, a trial was the only way forward to make sense of this.”

The evidence base for benefits from these drugs is weak.

What evidence there is indicates that they can do more harm than good.

Despite this, some clinicians as well as children and their families "believe passionately" in the beneficial effects (for which there is little to no evidence).

This statement does not point to a trial as "the only way forward". Since when did scientists weigh "passionate beliefs" against scientific evidence and decide they were of equal value?

Datun · 26/11/2025 07:26

OldCrone · 26/11/2025 05:19

Dr Cass has been widely quoted as saying this about the trial:

“My review uncovered a very weak evidence base for benefits from the use of puberty blockers for children and young people with gender dysphoria. In fact, some children had more negative than positive effects.

"However, given that there are clinicians, children and families who believe passionately in the beneficial effects, a trial was the only way forward to make sense of this.”

The evidence base for benefits from these drugs is weak.

What evidence there is indicates that they can do more harm than good.

Despite this, some clinicians as well as children and their families "believe passionately" in the beneficial effects (for which there is little to no evidence).

This statement does not point to a trial as "the only way forward". Since when did scientists weigh "passionate beliefs" against scientific evidence and decide they were of equal value?

Quite.

These passionate beliefs aren't and cannot be based on evidence that the drug works, so what the bloody hell are they based on?

Bloody fucking transactivism.

ArabellaSaurus · 26/11/2025 07:33

'there are clinicians, children and families who believe passionately in the beneficial effects'

'there are ... children ... who believe passionately in the beneficial effects'

The NHS is spaffing 10 million on treatment known to cause more harm than good, because children really believe in it.

They are absolutely desperate to make arguments for breaking up the NHS, aren't they?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 26/11/2025 09:02

Question:

Wes Streeting’s reply to Kemi Badenoch’s letter expressed surprise. But people have been talking about the dangers of this trial for ages - including the CAN group (can’t remember the whole acronym) who sent their very detailed reply to the research proposal.

So, is Wes so isolated from this that he would genuinely have no idea about any of that? Is it a “Yes Minister” situation, where this is genuinely the first he would have heard of anyone expressing concern?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.