Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Webberly Vs Joyce

546 replies

CassOle · 10/11/2025 14:49

https://nitter.poast.org/mollylguinness/status/1987891680964493390#m

'Join us for the Times Radio Gender Debate at 9pm on 20th November @HJoyceGender debates @HelenWebberley, presented by @Jo_Coburn live on @TimesRadio and on our YouTube channel.'

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
thelongestwayhome · 23/11/2025 15:55

Thanks @nicepotoftea for the details about the sketchy money making.

I’d add that for psychopathic people being rich is just a partial motivation. Full satisfaction only comes from gaining wealth through nefarious means: defrauding, swindling, cheating, playing the system in some way.

Particularly delicious if at the same time your activities can be spun as ‘kindness, helping or saving people’ while actually being entirely destructive.

JamieCannister · 23/11/2025 16:23

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/11/2025 15:52

Isn't it funny seeing them describe sex realist people concerned about safeguarding as "being in a cult"? That topsy turvy world where words mean whatever you want them to mean.

Is this the first c* where the members show us their thinking in real time?

Cult deprogramming needs to happen in a big way.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 23/11/2025 16:32

JamieCannister · 23/11/2025 16:23

Is this the first c* where the members show us their thinking in real time?

Cult deprogramming needs to happen in a big way.

It does, but where on earth would you begin?

eatfigs · 23/11/2025 16:44

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 23/11/2025 14:35

She got chided last month there for posting AI-generated questions at them and for GenderGP being rubbish: https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1olpob2/what_does_this_tribunal_really_mean_for_trans/

Looks like a lot of them are really fed up with her.

JamieCannister · 23/11/2025 17:09

eatfigs · 23/11/2025 16:44

She got chided last month there for posting AI-generated questions at them and for GenderGP being rubbish: https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1olpob2/what_does_this_tribunal_really_mean_for_trans/

Looks like a lot of them are really fed up with her.

TRAs / trans - "we want doctors who do what we want"

[Doctor does what they want ]

TRAs / trans - "we want doctors who do what we want and don't speak to transpobes"

Brainworm · 23/11/2025 17:24

JamieCannister · 23/11/2025 17:09

TRAs / trans - "we want doctors who do what we want"

[Doctor does what they want ]

TRAs / trans - "we want doctors who do what we want and don't speak to transpobes"

Some insist that they have doctors who are trans and to remove regulated prescribing from f cross sex hormones!

FragilityOfCups · 23/11/2025 18:23

eatfigs · 23/11/2025 16:44

She got chided last month there for posting AI-generated questions at them and for GenderGP being rubbish: https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1olpob2/what_does_this_tribunal_really_mean_for_trans/

Looks like a lot of them are really fed up with her.

The posts on there! "Nobody ever talks about cis peoples' 'gender identity'" what?! Yes they do, all the time! I remember when it was the first thing a trans person would "challenge you to think about" if you're a person who doesn't strongly wish to be the opposite sex.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/11/2025 18:42

Well, at least they're asking for medically qualified doctors and not demanding the right to prescribe for themselves and be trained to carry out their own surgery.

https://www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

It'll be a sad day when that link finally ceases to work. Is it archived?

HildegardP · 23/11/2025 19:03

Brainworm · 23/11/2025 17:24

Some insist that they have doctors who are trans and to remove regulated prescribing from f cross sex hormones!

Maybe they have, there are trans-identified medics. One example; Dr. Esben ‘Esther Pirelli’ Benestad, once Norway's top gender quack, is a trans-identified male. He spent several years being investigated, censured then allowed to practice only under supervision, but his delight in transgression could not be contained & in 2023 he permanently lost his medical licence. The Norwegian health authority specified, “unfit to practice responsibly due to a substantial lack of professional insight, irresponsible activity, and substantial breaches of duty.” That included prescribing gendermeds far outside Norwegian regulations.

Our problem in the UK is that the medical schools & junior Dr ranks now have a bulge of genderspecial people of sundry flags, & the BMA is now led by the gender crank Tom Dolphin, who, as a gay man & an anaesthetist, really ought to know better than to fall for anti-science fads.

SqueakyDinosaur · 23/11/2025 19:13

Is he actually a dolphin, or does he just identify as one?

PachacutisBadAuntie · 23/11/2025 21:09

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/11/2025 18:42

Well, at least they're asking for medically qualified doctors and not demanding the right to prescribe for themselves and be trained to carry out their own surgery.

https://www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

It'll be a sad day when that link finally ceases to work. Is it archived?

Archived 6 months ago here
https://archive.ph/tFmog

NutellaEllaElla · 23/11/2025 21:10

Is the Webberley/Joyce debate available on any podcasts does anyone know? I'd like to listen to it on my commute.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 23/11/2025 21:14

And date when it comes through

Webberly Vs Joyce
rhywlodes · 23/11/2025 21:58

Webberly has just been on Heretics with Andrew Gold. He tells her he knows she's a 'good person' and she seems to react well to that and tell him quite a lot! Think she says she has 4 children. He does push back on (I think) all the mad things she says but finds enough agreement/common ground so that the conversation can carry on 'agreably'.
I think he does well in getting a lot of sunlight - she seemed more relaxed with him and said some quite weird things (like she'd hate to have a willy but if she did she'd play with it all day!?!)

feministmom4ever · 23/11/2025 22:02

I found this really frustrating to listen to. Not because of Helen Joyce, I think she argued the case well, but because of how the other Helen refused to answer direct questions and kept deflecting, and in many instances denied well documents facts, and made claims that were categorically false. And she’s one of the few TRAs actually willing to have a conversation!

Catiette · 23/11/2025 22:25

Apologies for not having read much of the rest of the thread - was just there listening live - but rabbit-holing off an AIBU thread about AI, came across this. A pithy summary of evidence based medicine, it really does highlight the scary absurdity of HW's comment about statistics (24 hours on, I remember it as something like, "I can't think of any other medical condition in which statistics are permitted to limit or withhold treatment"?!)

...evidence-based medicine (EBM). Emerging in the 1990s with the unassailable goal of improving care, EBM challenged practices based on habit and tradition by insisting decisions be grounded in rigorous research, ideally randomized controlled trials. First championed at McMaster University by physicians David Sackett and Gordon Guyatt, EBM quickly hardened into orthodoxy, embedded in curricula, accreditation standards and performance metrics that reshaped clinical judgment into compliance with statistical averages and confidence intervals. The gains were real: effective therapies spread faster, outdated ones were abandoned, and an ethic of scientific accountability took hold...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2025/nov/09/healthcare-artificial-intelligence-ai

It's even more interesting in that the article (have only skimmed) then shifts into what we lost with EBM / its limitations, and this is, I think, in part what HW has monetised and exploits in the interview - a post-truth cynicism about facts plus materialist individualism... So she becomes the superior expert in that she recognises (thanks to her Zeitgeisty medical expertise) that feeling is paramount and HJ's dry stats just can't match up.

My bold.

But as the model transformed medicine, it narrowed the scope of clinical encounters. The messy, relational and interpretive dimensions of care – the ways physicians listen, intuit and elicit what patients may not initially say – were increasingly seen as secondary to standardized protocols. Doctors came to treat not singular people but data points. Under pressure for efficiency, EBM ossified into an ideology: “best practices” became whatever could be measured, tabulated and reimbursed. The complexity of patients’ lives was crowded out by metrics, checkboxes and algorithms. What began as a corrective to medicine’s biases paved the way for a new myopia: the conviction that medicine can and should be reduced to numbers.

You could apply the last sentence to HW's brand: What began as a corrective to medicine’s biases paved the way for a new myopia: the conviction that medicine can and should be reduced to numbers feeling.

Evidence-Based Medicine: A Short History of a Modern Medical Movement

The history of McMaster University's problem-based learning curriculum and critical appraisal methods, which Gordon Guyatt and David Sackett would later advocate as evidence-based medicine.

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/evidence-based-medicine-short-history-modern-medical-movement/2013-01

HildegardP · 23/11/2025 22:35

Catiette · 23/11/2025 22:25

Apologies for not having read much of the rest of the thread - was just there listening live - but rabbit-holing off an AIBU thread about AI, came across this. A pithy summary of evidence based medicine, it really does highlight the scary absurdity of HW's comment about statistics (24 hours on, I remember it as something like, "I can't think of any other medical condition in which statistics are permitted to limit or withhold treatment"?!)

...evidence-based medicine (EBM). Emerging in the 1990s with the unassailable goal of improving care, EBM challenged practices based on habit and tradition by insisting decisions be grounded in rigorous research, ideally randomized controlled trials. First championed at McMaster University by physicians David Sackett and Gordon Guyatt, EBM quickly hardened into orthodoxy, embedded in curricula, accreditation standards and performance metrics that reshaped clinical judgment into compliance with statistical averages and confidence intervals. The gains were real: effective therapies spread faster, outdated ones were abandoned, and an ethic of scientific accountability took hold...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2025/nov/09/healthcare-artificial-intelligence-ai

It's even more interesting in that the article (have only skimmed) then shifts into what we lost with EBM / its limitations, and this is, I think, in part what HW has monetised and exploits in the interview - a post-truth cynicism about facts plus materialist individualism... So she becomes the superior expert in that she recognises (thanks to her Zeitgeisty medical expertise) that feeling is paramount and HJ's dry stats just can't match up.

My bold.

But as the model transformed medicine, it narrowed the scope of clinical encounters. The messy, relational and interpretive dimensions of care – the ways physicians listen, intuit and elicit what patients may not initially say – were increasingly seen as secondary to standardized protocols. Doctors came to treat not singular people but data points. Under pressure for efficiency, EBM ossified into an ideology: “best practices” became whatever could be measured, tabulated and reimbursed. The complexity of patients’ lives was crowded out by metrics, checkboxes and algorithms. What began as a corrective to medicine’s biases paved the way for a new myopia: the conviction that medicine can and should be reduced to numbers.

You could apply the last sentence to HW's brand: What began as a corrective to medicine’s biases paved the way for a new myopia: the conviction that medicine can and should be reduced to numbers feeling.

A good corrective to the idea that EBM brought losses to medical practice is Ben Goldacre's Bad Medicine. Whatever relational or intuitive prowess a Dr may or may not have, the absolute minimum we should expect of them is that they confine themselves to treatments that don't just exploit the placebo effect (the nocebo effect is just as real, after all) but can be shown to actually work.
If we don't do that then we're back to radium underpants.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/11/2025 22:37

rhywlodes · 23/11/2025 21:58

Webberly has just been on Heretics with Andrew Gold. He tells her he knows she's a 'good person' and she seems to react well to that and tell him quite a lot! Think she says she has 4 children. He does push back on (I think) all the mad things she says but finds enough agreement/common ground so that the conversation can carry on 'agreably'.
I think he does well in getting a lot of sunlight - she seemed more relaxed with him and said some quite weird things (like she'd hate to have a willy but if she did she'd play with it all day!?!)

5 children. 4 boys and a girl. She has taught her daughter that she shouldn't be afraid of men.

Catiette · 23/11/2025 22:41

HildegardP · 23/11/2025 22:35

A good corrective to the idea that EBM brought losses to medical practice is Ben Goldacre's Bad Medicine. Whatever relational or intuitive prowess a Dr may or may not have, the absolute minimum we should expect of them is that they confine themselves to treatments that don't just exploit the placebo effect (the nocebo effect is just as real, after all) but can be shown to actually work.
If we don't do that then we're back to radium underpants.

Exactly - there's got to be a statistical basis underpinning medicine. I'm so tired of black and white thinking nowadays, but HW's playing into this tendency.

The article's really interesting - just got more into it. It's thought-provoking to apply some of the other trends it discusses to GI "care", too - like US health capitalism, and how self-diagnosis on the internet is distorting live consultations.

HildegardP · 23/11/2025 22:46

Catiette · 23/11/2025 22:41

Exactly - there's got to be a statistical basis underpinning medicine. I'm so tired of black and white thinking nowadays, but HW's playing into this tendency.

The article's really interesting - just got more into it. It's thought-provoking to apply some of the other trends it discusses to GI "care", too - like US health capitalism, and how self-diagnosis on the internet is distorting live consultations.

Edited

Yeah, US drug advertising to consumers "tell your HCP you need Magic Pillz!" is obscene. See also, Goldacre's Bad Pharma.

JamieCannister · 24/11/2025 06:39

feministmom4ever · 23/11/2025 22:02

I found this really frustrating to listen to. Not because of Helen Joyce, I think she argued the case well, but because of how the other Helen refused to answer direct questions and kept deflecting, and in many instances denied well documents facts, and made claims that were categorically false. And she’s one of the few TRAs actually willing to have a conversation!

#nodebate because #noargument was the TRA mantra for years.

It seems to me that Webberly's approach is #nodebate whilst sitting in a literal debate, using the methods of obfuscation, language games, distraction, bait and switch, dishonesty and disingenuousness.

If it's not an honest debate is it really a debate? Maybe it was a transdebate?

GallantKumquat · 24/11/2025 07:29

I think it was wrong to think of this as a debate or a refereed arena that Joyce could 'win'. And it worried me that people were raising their expectations too high. It was an adversarial panel discussion where nether side is obligated to answer questions, have right of rebuttal, operate under time constraints, etc. Nothing Joyce or Webberly said, as far as I can tell, was new - we've heard these arguments before.

What I always find remarkable about Joyce is that she doesn't become astringent or dogmatic even though she's gone over these topics countless times. She keeps the topic fresh and finds new ways of restating her arguments, so she's always a joy to listen to.

Webberly, frankly, surprised me. She's by far the best trans TRA I've heard, or at least that I can recall, I'm thinking Tatchell, Robin Moira White, India Willoughby, Susie Green, Victoria McCloud, or Nancy Kelley. But the arguments are as defective and unpersuasive as ever. If you subscribe to GI, you'll agree and be impressed with her forceful dogged defense. If not, you'll be highly annoyed.

miuri · 24/11/2025 07:37

I’d love to know what her income streams look like, how profitable this all is for her

CarefulN0w · 24/11/2025 07:57

Helen Joyce said in the SM newsletter on Friday that she had been approached back in May to debate HW. It sounded like there had been some back and forth to agree a format and so I can only assume that HW refused any kind of interview where the terms were pre-defined and in which she was required to answer questions directly.

HJ and JB really did incredibly well to remain calm and continue to try to debate in the face of HW wiggling around like a toddler needing a wee.

The SEEN in journalism podcast over the weekend briefly covered the debates with Stephanie Davies-Arai and noted that HW had confirmed that she (and possibly other private providers) were going straight to cross sex hormones to get around the ban on puberty blockers.

This admission is significant. Yes it’s shocking, though not surprising, but it is something that can be acted on. Legal cases, judicial reviews and publicity - coordinated where possible, will make it a harder environment for these dodgy providers to act in.

Swipe left for the next trending thread