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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Criticism of Islam is a protected belief

439 replies

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 09/11/2025 21:32

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15272771/Criticism-Islam-ruled-legally-protected-belief-man-banned-fined-thousands-pounds-social-media-posts.html

I wasn't able to find the judgment. There'll be a hearing in February but it's not clear to me whether claimant's beliefs have already been tested for Grainger compliance. Either way, the tribunal will (also) have to address objectionable manifestation (Bananarama doctrine).

I've raised it here because of the parallels with Forstater. It's a constant refrain of TRAs that permitting Forstater belief is tantamount to attacking GR as a protected characteristic. They do not understand secularism (or the SC ruling).

Of course the situation is not the same insofar as Islam has not been written into our law and Muslims don't expect the rest of us to follow its rules.

Article 9, anyone?

Criticism of Islam can be a legally protected belief, judge rules

Patrick Lee is pursuing a belief discrimination claim against the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries (IFoA) after it banned him and fined him nearly £23,000 last year over a series of tweets criticising Islam.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15272771/Criticism-Islam-ruled-legally-protected-belief-man-banned-fined-thousands-pounds-social-media-posts.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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MrsSkylerWhite · 11/11/2025 14:38

Mapletree1985 · 10/11/2025 14:37

Are we eventually going to have to go through the process of legally determining every single opinion as a protected belief? "Pineapple tastes good on pizza is protected belief, Supreme Court finds." " Judge rules 'Conservative Party full of knobheads, Labour not much better' protected belief." And so on.

Nobody should need to go to court for the freedom to criticise any religion.

This. I think they’re all equally nonsensical.

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 15:12

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 13:24

No I'd be sacked from my job if I wrote negative views about any religion on my SM and was reported as a result. If I spoke about the incest and paedophilia in the bible, there would be denial and anger from the Christians and their supporters.

I find that very hard to believe. Can you give any examples of anyone being sacked, forced to go into hiding, shot or beheaded for criticising or mocking Christianity?

inkognitha · 11/11/2025 15:14

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 14:02

You may want to check those "facts". Also it's generally considered more accurate to use BCE than BC. For all sorts of reasons unsuited to this thread.

What about you provide your facts so we can compare? If they exist and you know them that is. If you tell me I am wrong, you have to back it up.

What you affirmed and need to prove is that Islam was present in the UK before Christianism. I am so looking forward to it 🤭

ps. Sincere apologies for using BC, the error is mine, I was meaning AD or whatever is used these days, doesn’t really change the facts except for the easily offended sticklers (but that’s all they have)

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 15:18

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 13:25

You don't know many Christians if that is your belief. Probably because you only know a few non church goers who loosely describe themselves as C of E.

I know lots of of Christians as I was a regular church goer, grew up in a Christian household, went to a Cof E school and Sunday School and my aunty ran a Sunday School for many years.

I have no idea who you are hanging out with that has these views (and for avoidance of doubt I am not speculating) but they are categorically not the mainstream.

It is interesting that you are so determined to defend Islamic views that you decide to denigrate and make things up about Christians. Is there anything about Islam that you disagree with that you won’t claim that Christians do too? How about stoning women for adultery?

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 15:21

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 13:32

It is proof of your commitment to the religion rather than an association by background. The fact that hardly any of the people polled actually worship in a church is important when analysing the data.

People who have actually read the bible and believe in it are typically against homosexuality and think it is a sin. That goes without saying.

Why are you presuming to tell Christians what we believe? You are seriously just making stuff up now and it is quite offensive.

Funnily enough you will suffer no consequences for that.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 11/11/2025 15:23

@SerendipityJane

Islam ... is specifically presented as a guide to all aspects of life. There is no ... division between the sacred and the profane [and] it requires full control of every Muslims life. Now as with Christianity there are a spectrum of views on this. However unlike Christianity they cannot be reconciled with a secular state.

There are many devout Muslims in the UK who don't break the law, don't proselytise, and accept that in this country there are multiple beliefs and unbeliefs, with a degree of honest dialogue between them as to what constitutes a good society. Why is this not secularism? Is there a universal tenet of Islam that British Muslims are disobeying?

I'm interested in this because of the contrast with transgenderism, which I view as inherently irreconcilable with secularism. Transgenderists expect the whole of society to obey their belief-based rules, and the organs of the state to proselytise on their behalf, and think that expressions of doubt, disbelief or debate are intrinsically objectionable and therefore lie somewhere between unprotected belief and an actual crime.

The problem is that an unfalsifiable metaphysical proposition has been written into the law, and it's about humans themselves, who can then claim to be injured by mere demurral.

I can tell my Muslim colleague that I'm not a Muslim and even maybe tell him politely why not, and he won't throw a fit or confiscate my bacon sandwich. But just try telling a transgenderist that you're not one of them, so won't be mis-sexing anyone or letting them into the wrong changing room, and see how far it gets you.

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EmmyFr · 11/11/2025 15:27

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 14:08

Afghanistan VS US is pretty equally no for me for very similar reasons.

Season 6 What GIF by The Office

This is so insulting to the plight of Afghan women I don't know where to start

CassOle · 11/11/2025 15:30

EmmyFr · 11/11/2025 15:27

This is so insulting to the plight of Afghan women I don't know where to start

Agreed.

BundleBoogie · 11/11/2025 15:30

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 14:14

I am also not in the US. If I was, I would be infinitely more likely to be born into an ultra religious Christian family and not even been allowed to wear jeans.

How do you know that? How do you know you wouldn’t have been born to some free love California hippies and allowed to wear whatever you want? Or some NYC high powered capitalist businesswoman?

You realise that you are sounding really strange now? America is light years away from Afghanistan. Try looking up living conditions for women in Afghanistan right now where they struggle to even get medical care because women aren’t allowed to work and men aren’t generally allowed to treat them. Your comparison to America and jeans wearing to score cheap points is disgusting.

Signalbox · 11/11/2025 15:32

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 11/11/2025 14:32

Between 1990 and 2010, TRAs ruthlessly lobbied via the courts and Parliament, and the people with locus standi against them (women, gays and lesbians, worried medics, educationalists, and criminologists) weren't heard because they didn't realise what was really happening. But things will surely play out differently in relation to Muslims, because they are both visible and unpopular.

Labour tried to keep their plans on “Islamophobia” under the radar but I think we have all wised up to these types of tactics now. Thankfully they were threatened with legal challenge and backed down.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/26/rayner-faces-legal-challenge-over-secret-islamophobia-talks/

Access Restricted

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/06/26/rayner-faces-legal-challenge-over-secret-islamophobia-talks

quantumbutterfly · 11/11/2025 15:50

Bangbangwhizzbang · 11/11/2025 14:11

Surely, the attempt to remove Christian influence over the dating systems (though still keeping it but simply changing the name to pretend it isn’t relevant) is relevant to this thread?

Still using AD?

IsEveryUserNameBloodyTaken · 11/11/2025 15:57

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 14:02

You may want to check those "facts". Also it's generally considered more accurate to use BCE than BC. For all sorts of reasons unsuited to this thread.

Why is it considered more accurate to use BCE than BC as they are the same thing.
I will continue to use BC, not that it comes up much in my vocabulary.

Imnobody4 · 11/11/2025 16:05

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 13:24

No I'd be sacked from my job if I wrote negative views about any religion on my SM and was reported as a result. If I spoke about the incest and paedophilia in the bible, there would be denial and anger from the Christians and their supporters.

And the you could take it to an employment tribunal. Go on try it.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 16:06

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 13:22

Catholic countries put their religious beliefs before any sort of secular rights. So you'll see big restrictions on abortion and the like in those countries. Little welfare for single mothers. All things that promote their belief system.

Italy is a catholic country as are France and Spain, but all have liberal abortion laws.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 16:10

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 13:36

You realise our own politicians have been talking about restricting abortion for a whike now, yes?

Some, yes, because that is what happens in a democracy. People have freedom of speech and conscience.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 16:13

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 13:51

It's always been legal up to full term depending on circumstances.

What I do know is that at two political parties want to restrict abortion. I know there was a huge anti abortion March in London a few months ago, and it is an annual event.

You don't need to be a Christian to have some moral sense that there do need to be some limits to abortion.

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 16:25

What you affirmed and need to prove is that Islam was present in the UK before Christianism.

Did I ?

Did I really ?

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 16:34

There are many devout Muslims in the UK who don't break the law, don't proselytise, and accept that in this country there are multiple beliefs and unbeliefs, with a degree of honest dialogue between them as to what constitutes a good society. Why is this not secularism? Is there a universal tenet of Islam that British Muslims are disobeying

There isn't space in this margin to go into the history of Islam and it's various facets since Mohammed. Shia, Sunni the Abbasid, the Umayyad (from memory)

Some Muslims are perfectly happy with the fact that their faith is not ti be used to advance secular agendas. Other Muslims would say they are not (proper) Muslims and start a barney. With no top Muslim - unlike Christians, who have the Pope - then arbitration is always going to be ephemeral.

And for the hard of thinking I was being ironic in suggesting the Pope is the font of all Christian dogma in the world. As many many many countries - including by not limited to Britain - will testify.

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 16:43

IsEveryUserNameBloodyTaken · 11/11/2025 15:57

Why is it considered more accurate to use BCE than BC as they are the same thing.
I will continue to use BC, not that it comes up much in my vocabulary.

really I should have said appropriate.

Having been schooled in BC/AD, and not really getting a memo about the change (see also: Peking) I'm not dogmatic about it (truth be told I only bought it up because I was being hit over the head with "facts" that called out for a snark).

However, using a Christian-centric dating system does rather underscore the cultural fascism of The West. Especially when you realise that the vast majority of the world have very little knowledge of, or interest in, a random supposed prophets birth over two millennia ago. It's also disregarding the fact that for a lot of people in The West today, by dint of not being even vaguely Christian, it speaks of a "Lord" they may not wish to support.

Where as "Common Era" is very much a secular drop in. No numeric conversion needed, and it reflects that regardless of the religious aspect, that dating system has marked most of European and Western history as it is recorded.

Given how much I have written, I can't begin to express how little I care whether someone uses BC/AD or BCE/CE. Although for the sake of my undiagnosed conditions, please be consistent 😀

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 16:44

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 16:06

Italy is a catholic country as are France and Spain, but all have liberal abortion laws.

Separation of church and state. After a fashion.

SerendipityJane · 11/11/2025 16:50

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 16:13

You don't need to be a Christian to have some moral sense that there do need to be some limits to abortion.

Edited

I refer you to that weird weird world of the Greeks (for example) ... they saw no evil or moral deficiency in exposing babies to the wild as as religious practice. They would be as baffled by your stance as you by theirs.

Which is why "western culture" cannot escape the fact it was birthed in a Christian view of the world. Which isn't necessarily the only one. Which has always been a problem when it insists it is .....

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 11/11/2025 17:03

@SerendipityJane

Some Muslims are perfectly happy with the fact that their faith is not to be used to advance secular agendas. Other Muslims would say they are not (proper) Muslims and start a barney.

In a secular society, any person of faith should be free to lobby for law changes inspired by that faith. And it's up to government to resist, if the result would infringe on others' rights. An example would be Muslims lobbying to ban same-sex marriage: not going to happen.

But I'm more interested in laws that breach people's right to freedom of belief and conscience - within which I would include anything that could operate as a blasphemy law, and the GRA, at least as currently interpreted by most institutions.

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JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 17:07

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 16:06

Italy is a catholic country as are France and Spain, but all have liberal abortion laws.

Isn't it up to 12 weeks in Italy?

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 17:08

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2025 16:13

You don't need to be a Christian to have some moral sense that there do need to be some limits to abortion.

Edited

Moral sense that would guided by some religious dude.

DeanElderberry · 11/11/2025 17:15

JadeSquid · 11/11/2025 13:24

No I'd be sacked from my job if I wrote negative views about any religion on my SM and was reported as a result. If I spoke about the incest and paedophilia in the bible, there would be denial and anger from the Christians and their supporters.

Oh, do tell about the incest and paedophilia.

Lots's daughters taking advantage of his drunkenness to impregnate themselves was incest, yes, sure, but anything else?

It's a myth about survival after disaster btw.