Times Interview with Kate Clanchy - shared article in post

[NorthSouthEast]

This is a sobering, thoughtful, harrowing, blood-boiling read. What Kate Clanchy went through 😡. I’ve put this in FWR as it’s yet another story of a woman being cancelled on the basis of rumour, supposition and hearsay with self-righteous people scrambling to jump on the “be kind” wagon as it rolls another human being and their career into the mud.

Kate Clanchy: I was cancelled. It made me contemplate suicide

www.thetimes.com/article/7681d5ec-3773-4b36-ab95-e4ab409d7899?shareToken=e76def471fd13ded750d7295fd554675

Isnt the whole point of the book to look at prejudice and discrimination and classism, racism, etc, and how it affects society and education?

You talk about broader context: how about considering the power of a posh, white, educated, lauded teacher, who publishes your work and takes you into radio etc, and how that dynamic might play out with the children in her care.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Everything filtered through this 'identity'or 'oppression' nexus lens. It's just so terminally dull, pointless and shuts down all genuine debate and genuine empathy and understanding.

This woman knew these children well and quite obviously cared about them. The fact that she's white doesn't change that.

Where is the evidence that she did any of these things?

It’s in the book, the whole scenario is detailed, and this was also published as an excerpt in the guardian in 2019. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/31/kate-clanchy-some-kids-i-taught-and-what-they-taught-me

It's an interesting point. That heartbreaking article seems to me that she was trying to help, and succeeded in helping, deeply traumatised children.

I think the arguments are maybe about very intense human issues. Yes, allowing a child to write poetry may upset them. Yes, children are upset at school. Yes, teachers' jobs include pastoral care that they may not be perfect at. And yes, one could argue that offering to help someone is a risk.

I think I'm going to have to read it too, but it's going at the end of a long, long tbr pile.

When I was at primary school, a number of decades ago, we were given a book to read that descriptions of Kate Clanchy's book brought to mind

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wedding-Nicer-Than-Cats-Miss/dp/0435121820

From comments in the reviews it may be there may have been a deliberate effort to have this book widely read. Perhaps to foster empathy for recent immigrants, the problems they faced. I don't doubt were I to go back and reread it I'd find bits problematical, but I think it was well intentioned and probably did massively more good than harm. I think it's out of print now.

Some of the bits quoted from Kate's book have made me uncomfortable. Some of her defences seem nitpicky. Although I don't see the problem with some bits that others criticised.

What I expect happens far more often than a teacher encouraging a child to express themselves, is that broken children get no help at all. No teachers offering to listen to them, no counsellors springing up out of nowhere to offer this perfectly appropriate 'support' that people like to imagine exists.

We hear that in many places, for example, there is zero mental health support available for children. There may be a bit of medication available. But there are no counsellors trained in safeguarding and supporting paediatric mental health.

So should a teacher, confronted with a traumatised child, just ignore that? It is probably the sensible advice if one values one's career and doesn't wish to get into deep shit.

Is it the human thing to do?

This is a really good point. In the absence of the 'perfect' support, is the answer really none at all? It seems like Clanchy's impact on these children was overall very positive, even if some of her actions can be questioned.

Also one must bear in mind that this is a book; a story that has been told. Clanchy is a writer, and we can't really know for sure that any of these children exist in exactly the way described, or whether the events were exactly as described.

A good writer provokes questions in the reader and makes one think. A shit writer produces work that satisfies everyone with no risk of upsetting anyone.

But that is a material reality. It might be inconvenient but that is real life.

So what? She can't tell these children's stories, is that what you are saying?

No. There are many poets making beautiful work with children. Joseph Fasano for example. What is different here is the determination to dig into trauma with children, causing unnecessary risk.

The incident described above as ‘forcing’ a traumatised Syrian girl to write poems is in front of me now. The girl , whom KC calls Heya, is indeed traumatised. An Arabic poet comes in to run a workshop for the day. Heya attends and writes a poem for the workshop, not for KC. Another girl, Shakila, admires the poem and shows it to KC. Shakila and KC think that Heya would benefit from Poetry Club and invite her ( not force her) to come. At first she doesn’t. Then eventually she does, and writes a poem about her lost country which makes her cry. How could it not? Her form tutor thinks this isn’t good for her and that it’s ’opening wounds’. At one point KC questions herself, as to whether she knows what she’s doing. Maybe the form tutor is right. But Shakila, who comes from Afghanistan, and knows a bit about trauma, persists. So does KC. And Heya writes more poems, often unprompted. Some of them are included in a book KC is making as part of a translation project. And when the book is published Heya ‘couldn’t be more proud’ . She invites her whole family to the launch.

Now you can disagree with KC’s approach if you like . But you do need to read it in context. And to describe Heya as being forced or compelled is to deny her agency.

She asked a child to join her poetry class, the child turned up.

And again, the author of this book and all the children in it are characters. They are perhaps based on real events/people, but this is a non-fiction book, it's not a journalist's report.

I do agree that safeguarding needs to be prioritised, but this book seems to be more about poetry, how that might help, what use it is, how it can work and the issues it may cause in an educational setting. Drawing on the author's experiences to set up and pose questions.

It's not sharing precise, detailed, accurate contemporaneous notes on individual children's stories and histories. Because that really would be unethical.

She was running poetry workshops. The child wrote a poem. Which professional bodies out there would deem that a risk?

How you can read that beautiful piece and come to the conclusion that KC is an awful person who should be stopped from teaching or writing I can’t think, but it says more about you than her.

But it’s made me want to read the book even more so thank you for that.

Her coworker did - the child’s form teacher, who warned Kate twice to back off?

I work at a university in the arts - even the level 6 students are supervised and protected by ethical frameworks to protect them when working creatively on something, such as a traumatic experience, which might cause them undue harm. They are discouraged from doing so and have to provide paperwork to acknowledge this, it’s basic safeguarding.

If you know a student has a trauma background, do you then refer that on to someone?

i work in education, I’m trained to spot safeguarding flags.

enjoy!

I work at a university in the arts - even the level 6 students are supervised and protected by ethical frameworks to protect them when working creatively on something, such as a traumatic experience, which might cause them undue harm. They are discouraged from doing so and have to provide paperwork to acknowledge this, it’s basic safeguarding.

So an arts education is now actively and explicitly discouraging people from reflecting on or working on artwork that might access their feelings/emotions?

You have no idea how it was handled in the background, which of course wouldn't be relayed in the book.