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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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28
MyAmpleSheep · 08/05/2026 14:45

impossibletoday · 08/05/2026 14:42

Permission to appeal granted

Just wow.

TheAutumnCrow · 08/05/2026 14:48

OMFG

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 08/05/2026 15:02

🍿

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 08/05/2026 15:03

I know we like to keep things on one thread but given this is such big news it probably deserves a new thread so people read it

OhBuggerandArse · 08/05/2026 15:05

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 08/05/2026 15:03

I know we like to keep things on one thread but given this is such big news it probably deserves a new thread so people read it

I made one because I couldn't find this one.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5527142-allison-bailey-granted-permission-to-appeal-re-stonewall

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/05/2026 15:18

It’s amazing news. At least now these arguments will get the rigorous consideration they deserve. Whatever the outcome, the legal position will be settled.

Obviously fingers crossed for a win.

MyAmpleSheep · 08/05/2026 15:22

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/05/2026 15:18

It’s amazing news. At least now these arguments will get the rigorous consideration they deserve. Whatever the outcome, the legal position will be settled.

Obviously fingers crossed for a win.

To be fair, the arguments have already had a huge amount of rigorous consideration in three different courts, including the top English court. The Employment Tribunal, Employment Appeal Tribunal and Court of Appeal are not joke tribunals.

And - had the SC declined to hear a further appeal - the legal position would still be settled, albeit in a way that doesn't suit us.

peakedtraybake · 08/05/2026 16:47

Tremendous news. I was half listening to the last court hearing and stopped being able to follow even the gist of the legal arguments.

My recollection/impression is along the lines of: the EAT thought that Stonewall's "we trust you to do the right thing" was not Stonewall inducing GC to bad behaviour (which Allison and co say it was). Anything beyond that was way beyond my understanding.😳

I'm going to try reading the UKSC announcement, but not holding out much hope it will help me. Are there are kindly and patient lawyers who can help with the legal story so far please?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/05/2026 16:50

MyAmpleSheep · 08/05/2026 15:22

To be fair, the arguments have already had a huge amount of rigorous consideration in three different courts, including the top English court. The Employment Tribunal, Employment Appeal Tribunal and Court of Appeal are not joke tribunals.

And - had the SC declined to hear a further appeal - the legal position would still be settled, albeit in a way that doesn't suit us.

Edited

The remit of the SC is very different. I am not criticising the other courts but we need proper guidance on legislative interpretation. Employment Tribunal’s are not equipped to do that on something this complex and even the CoA isn’t really the right place.

This is an application of an untested legislative principle.

peakedtraybake · 08/05/2026 16:55

The SC announcement was utterly unilluminating.

TheAutumnCrow · 08/05/2026 16:55

Does this mean that here we are again, asking the Supreme Court ruling on what the lawmakers (the UK parliament) intended and meant when they wrote the legislation?

There seemed to be lot of legal argument around the meaning of the word 'induce', from what I remember. The Supreme Court will need to decide what parliament intended it to mean at that time, in that context, for its purpose.

It's all the rest I'm a bit hazy on after all this time.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 08/05/2026 16:59

TheAutumnCrow · 08/05/2026 16:55

Does this mean that here we are again, asking the Supreme Court ruling on what the lawmakers (the UK parliament) intended and meant when they wrote the legislation?

There seemed to be lot of legal argument around the meaning of the word 'induce', from what I remember. The Supreme Court will need to decide what parliament intended it to mean at that time, in that context, for its purpose.

It's all the rest I'm a bit hazy on after all this time.

It will be very interesting.

It has however become apparent that we have a government currently that has zero respect for the law, and even the SCJ.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/05/2026 17:02

The core argument before the SC is around s111(2) Equality Act 2010

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/111

“A person (A) must not cause another (B) to do in relation to a third person (C) anything which is a basic contravention.”

The question is what does A need to have done or not done to have been deemed to have caused B to discriminate against C.

In Allison’s case did Stonewall’s behaviour reach the threshold of having caused GCC to discriminate against her.

This has never been tested before i.e. what is the threshold/behaviour that meets the test of causation rather that just being incidental. None of the lower courts have any precedent to rely on so it is a valid question for the SC.

Edit
I wonder if promulgating an incorrect version of the law as official guidance would meet this test? or did it need the threat of loss of status etc as well.

Equality Act 2010

An Act to make provision to require Ministers of the Crown and others when making strategic decisions about the exercise of their functions to have regard to the desirability of reducing socio-economic inequalities; to reform and harmonise equality law...

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/111

lcakethereforeIam · 08/05/2026 17:04

Wishing Allison and her team the very best.

Another2Cats · 08/05/2026 17:07

TheAutumnCrow · 08/05/2026 16:55

Does this mean that here we are again, asking the Supreme Court ruling on what the lawmakers (the UK parliament) intended and meant when they wrote the legislation?

There seemed to be lot of legal argument around the meaning of the word 'induce', from what I remember. The Supreme Court will need to decide what parliament intended it to mean at that time, in that context, for its purpose.

It's all the rest I'm a bit hazy on after all this time.

On the Supreme Court website, the case summary says that there are two issues:

Did Stonewall Equality Ltd cause Garden Court Chambers to discriminate against Ms Bailey contrary to section 111(2) of the Equality Act 2010?

What is the correct approach to causation for the purposes of section 111(2) of the Equality Act 2010?

I think that perhaps one of the reasons why the court decided to hear the case is to consider what is "the correct approach to causation".

Causation, as far as I understand it, is asking the question "Did the defendant do something that caused the claimant a loss?"

That can apply in any situation, not just things connected with the Equality Act.

https://supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2026-0017

Bailey (Appellant) v Stonewall Equality Limited and others (Respondents) - UK Supreme Court

Did Stonewall Equality Ltd cause Garden Court Chambers to discriminate against Ms Bailey contrary to section 111(2) of the Equality Act 2010? What is the correct approach to causation for the purposes of section 111(2) of the Equality Act 2010?

https://supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2026-0017

MyAmpleSheep · 08/05/2026 17:13

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/05/2026 16:50

The remit of the SC is very different. I am not criticising the other courts but we need proper guidance on legislative interpretation. Employment Tribunal’s are not equipped to do that on something this complex and even the CoA isn’t really the right place.

This is an application of an untested legislative principle.

guidance on legislative interpretation.

With respect, this purpose is exactly what the appellate courts are for. Only a tiny tiny fraction of issues to do with legislative interpretation come to the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, and only ones of national importance. Most question of interpretation are settled in the High Court, whose judges day jobs are to do exactly that: legislative interpretation.

It doesn’t credit the EAT or the Court of Appeal appropriately to say this question inevitably falls to be decided by the SC, and previous tribunals didn’t give it weighty consideration.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/05/2026 17:22

MyAmpleSheep · 08/05/2026 17:13

guidance on legislative interpretation.

With respect, this purpose is exactly what the appellate courts are for. Only a tiny tiny fraction of issues to do with legislative interpretation come to the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, and only ones of national importance. Most question of interpretation are settled in the High Court, whose judges day jobs are to do exactly that: legislative interpretation.

It doesn’t credit the EAT or the Court of Appeal appropriately to say this question inevitably falls to be decided by the SC, and previous tribunals didn’t give it weighty consideration.

Edited

Clearly the Supreme Court do feel this is something for them to decide upon so I guess we’ll just have to be satisfied with that.

sniggerly · 08/05/2026 17:28

Right, I need dates! My calendar fills up alarmingly quickly these days.

MyAmpleSheep · 08/05/2026 17:46

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/05/2026 17:22

Clearly the Supreme Court do feel this is something for them to decide upon so I guess we’ll just have to be satisfied with that.

What we can infer is that they thought the CA’s approach was wrong, or have so,thing to add to it. if they approved of the CA’s ruling they wouldn’t waste time repeating the same content, and would let the prior judgement stand by refusing to hear the appeal.

That may not mean the matter is decided in AB’s favour though.

TheAutumnCrow · 08/05/2026 18:03

Thanks, @Another2Cats and @ChazsBrilliantAttitude.

When you remind me like that, I really have trouble getting my head around why Allison lost in the Court of Appeal.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/05/2026 18:04

MyAmpleSheep · 08/05/2026 17:46

What we can infer is that they thought the CA’s approach was wrong, or have so,thing to add to it. if they approved of the CA’s ruling they wouldn’t waste time repeating the same content, and would let the prior judgement stand by refusing to hear the appeal.

That may not mean the matter is decided in AB’s favour though.

The implications of this judgment are potentially huge. There have been a number of organisations who have profited from selling training that misrepresented the law. Is there an obligation on bodies that hold themselves out as expert voices to ensure they don’t present a campaigning position as legal fact?

This is much wider than AB and Stonewall. Potentially all diversity training providers will have to reassess their approach. Possibly also trade unions?

The converse point maybe how much of the reliance on the training providers was reasonable and should the purchaser of the training do their own research?

On the face of it you might argue that a barrister’s chambers would not have relied on Stonewall’s advice being legal experts themselves. However, in this specific case SW characterised AB’s comments as transphobic and GCC upheld their complaint whereas AB’s comments were expressions of a protected belief. Consequently, SW mischaracterisation of AB’s comments appears to have directly led to GCC’s discriminatory conduct. However, there may be an argument that GCC’s specialist knowledge breaks the chain of causation. That would not necessarily prevent a more general duty not to mislead if such misleading information leads to discrimination.

It’s a really interesting area of liability for the actions of others.

Mochudubh · 08/05/2026 18:19

Did Stonewall Equality Ltd cause Garden Court Chambers to discriminate against Ms Bailey contrary to section 111(2) of the Equality Act 2010?

I'm aware I'm parading my own ignorance here but I thought Stonewall was a charity. Is Stonewall Equality Ltd a non-charitable offshoot or can a limited company also be a charity?

KnottyAuty · 08/05/2026 18:22

Well with Ben Cooper & Akua Reindorf on her team i think the chances will be looking good

Will there be any intervenors in this case?

im wondering about whether a staff organisation could apply - where employees are being forced to discriminate against women due to organisational policy - could they request clarification about the lawfulness of their employer?

spannasaurus · 08/05/2026 18:23

Mochudubh · 08/05/2026 18:19

Did Stonewall Equality Ltd cause Garden Court Chambers to discriminate against Ms Bailey contrary to section 111(2) of the Equality Act 2010?

I'm aware I'm parading my own ignorance here but I thought Stonewall was a charity. Is Stonewall Equality Ltd a non-charitable offshoot or can a limited company also be a charity?

Yes a limited company can be a charity. Usually limited by guarantee

MyAmpleSheep · 08/05/2026 18:25

i might be out to lunch but I didn’t think the case was about Stonewall’s published advice. I thought it hinged on whether Medcalf’s specific complaint about AB and exhortation to “do the right thing” constituted inducement to discrimination. Have I misremembered that?