Writing female villains - how to do it without looking misogynistic?

[ThisFunnyGreenCritic]

She will be the fictional daughter of John Blunt, mastermind behind the South Sea Bubble that crashed the English Economy for years.

Her goal is to find buried treasure to save her and her father’s name. The bad news is, she’s as unscrupulous as her daddy and is okay with turning on people (which she will unsuccessfully try doing to the hero).

At first, the hero has a thing for her… though he goes for a different woman when he learns how manipulative she is.

I don’t want this to make it look like I view all women as scheming harpies, but I also feel like it’s unfair if we say women can’t be evil like this. Advice?

Just include other female characters. Ironically I think it’s a man who put it best: www.indy100.com/celebrities/george-rr-martin-writing-female-women-characters-game-of-thrones-author-7639311

There’s already 3. One sadly dies.

My advice is that this is not the right board for you, and I’m sure there are many creative writing forums (possibly some on mumsnet) where you can explore this. We tend to have more serious chats on this board.

In general, though, if helpful - writing a few long paragraphs and then going ‘Advice?’ at the end probably won’t get you the reaction you want from any woman, ever.

Lastly - scheming harpie? You should wash your mouth out. Bless you. I would actually love to have a link to your book when it’s finished! I’ll certainly make sure it’s the book of the month for our book club. Sounds excellent.

You didn't click on Vashta's link, did you. Martin's reply to the question of how he manages to write such interesting female characters was "You know, I've always considered women to be people."

Read some Sue Grafton.

Like 3 whole entire women? Wow!

Long paragraphs?

Just a thought, but I definitely wouldn’t incorporate a female villain as a plot twist. I have read several works of popular crime fiction lately where you get to the end and – shock! – it’s the person you least suspected… a mild-mannered woman!!! As a feminist, I am very aware violent crime statistics suggest a woman is not very likely to be a murderer, but it has almost become almost a modern fiction cliche to suggest otherwise. If you are going to have a female villain, make her choose badness from the beginning – not some background character with a grudge. Most women don’t tend to resolve grudges by going and killing someone.

You sound a lot like the bloke who came here a few months ago who wanted to write a book based on the girl from The Crucible. Maybe search for those threads?

Read Gone with the Wind. If you write it as well as Margaret Mitchell, your scheming harpy might eclipse the hero though.

The problem you've got is that you're seeing her as a villain, whereas you need to see her as the hero of her own story. As far as she's concerned, she's doing what she has to do to save her family name, and is having to use the tools she has at her disposal to do so. You say "manipulative", I say "has god tier people skills". Check her actions make sense in the light of her own motivation, rather than to just drive the story on, and make the hero look good in comparison. As someone up there said, treat her like a person not just a plot device

Familiarise yourself with the Bechdel test and try and have the minimum more than 2.

Oh yes, I was trying to remember where I’d heard this before!

Write it from her perspective, rather than the hero’s. As everyone has said, women are fully rounded people just as men are. Even baddie ones. They’re not the support humans of the “hero”. You need to get the readers rooting for her, as well as rooting for your hero. If you can’t imagine writing her story through her eyes, you’ve probably got a 2D baddie woman.

Very much so. OP if this isn’t you already, then here’s one of the threads: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5351889-thoughts-on-what-im-writing

No, 3 non-villainous women. 1 villlainois woman.

given that the year is 1722, that’s actually a lot of important women for a time when most women weren’t expected to handle sailing.

Just how stuff was back then

She’s not really the surprise villain.

Her father is John Blunt. He’s a well-known historical grifter.

There really isn’t a “surprise villain” because every character in the story is kind of bad. But there is still a moment of unexpected betrayal, not from her though.

Your question is weirdly misogynistic. If John Blunt doesn’t represent all men involved in/alive at the time of the South Sea Bubble, why would his daughter represent all women?

Oh she doesn’t. There’s a good chunk of other women (at least, as many as I can make in that time when women weren’t allowed to sail) who are NOT like her.

I’m afraid I disagree. Feminist perspectives on the depiction of women is important. 68% of fiction books (physical and e format) are purchased and read by women. Women - and male readers - imbibe subliminally negative narratives about women via the prominence - or lack thereof - of female characters.

My specialist area is crime fiction where male psychopathy is often blamed on absent, aberrant and or otherwise abusive mothers. The same thing appears in YA fiction - often they are orphaned or the mother falls into either the madonna-esque or the wicked step-mother archetype.

It’s really important that women discuss these tropes and push back against authors and publishers that are too lazy to challenge them when a manuscript lands on their desk.

That’s it.

Oh darn it - should have read beyond the first post 🤦🏽‍♀️

yep, this isn’t the place for this OP…

Though I might start a thread at some point in FWR on the way women are depicted in literature and film …

Where should I take this then?

You know where - the creative writing board as suggested above…

Please tag me if you do! It’s a fascinating area that deserves attention.