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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
10
fromorbit · 16/10/2025 15:47

Datun · 16/10/2025 15:18

*No one bears more blame for gender ideology capturing public institutions and the global erasure of women’s rights than Michael O’Flaherty...

... It was he who convened in 2006 a private meeting of NGOs, lawyers and LGBT activists in Indonesia which drew up what became known as the Yogyakarta Principles.*

I love that Janice Turner knows all this stuff

She knows it, we know it.

Soon a LOT more people will know it.

The Peakening continues...

fromorbit · 16/10/2025 16:04

The plot thickens...

teresa smith

Look who popped up yesterday using O’Flaherty’s letter as a pretext in the House of Lords:

It’s our old friend Ruth Hunt, former CEO of Stonewall!

She of “no debate” fame.

It’s almost as if this was co-ordinated in a last, desperate move against the UKSupremeCourt ruling?
https://x.com/treesey/status/1978744542263193660

teresa smith (@treesey) on X

Look who popped up yesterday using O’Flaherty’s letter as a pretext in the House of Lords: It’s our old friend Ruth Hunt, former CEO of Stonewall! She of “no debate” fame. It’s almost as if this was co-ordinated in a last, desperate move against the...

https://x.com/treesey/status/1978744542263193660

ILikeDungs · 16/10/2025 16:09

I am tasting the desperation. Hunt did not look happy at the end of that clip

Datun · 16/10/2025 17:48

fromorbit · 16/10/2025 16:04

The plot thickens...

teresa smith

Look who popped up yesterday using O’Flaherty’s letter as a pretext in the House of Lords:

It’s our old friend Ruth Hunt, former CEO of Stonewall!

She of “no debate” fame.

It’s almost as if this was co-ordinated in a last, desperate move against the UKSupremeCourt ruling?
https://x.com/treesey/status/1978744542263193660

The elephant in the room is that transactivists want discrimination to mean men being excluded from women's spaces.

Not a protected characteristic with regards to housing, employment, etc.

So every time anyone explains that they are protected under the equality act, they are inwardly fuming over what everyone understands that to mean.

I just wish it was out

napody · 17/10/2025 07:29

akkakk · 14/10/2025 10:30

What a naive person...

He warned that trans guidance introduced across different areas of society in the UK following the ruling in April by the UK Supreme Court — declaring that the definition of a woman must be based on biological sex — may also breach the ECHR.

Well - he has misunderstood that - it has been law for 15+ years, and wasn't defined or introduced in April - simply confirmed / clarified. It has also been biological fact for several thousand years 😉

The Supreme Court was also very clear to demonstrate that this doesn't affect the 'rights' held by 'Trans' people.

Perhaps time we walked away from the ECHR which seems to not consider logic or law in its statements!

The reality is that the cat is out of the bag - the small child has commented that the Emperor is wearing no clothes - whatever happens now, it has become acceptable to state the truth and be honest that men can not ever become women. We have clarity around biology / we have an awareness that medical intervention of children is abuse - and this will be seen more and more as children grow up, realise that their lives have been wrecked and take to the courts to pursue doctors and parents.

It is never going back to the old days of misogynistic bullying to be told that you must spout lies...

Perhaps time we walked away from the ECHR which seems to not consider logic or law in its statements!

The Times article is pretty good in that it spells out that that is exactly what Mahmood's claims will be used to argue for by the tories and reform. The ECHR hasn't actually made a statement on this, have they?

Merrymouse · 17/10/2025 08:23

napody · 17/10/2025 07:29

Perhaps time we walked away from the ECHR which seems to not consider logic or law in its statements!

The Times article is pretty good in that it spells out that that is exactly what Mahmood's claims will be used to argue for by the tories and reform. The ECHR hasn't actually made a statement on this, have they?

Yes, I think it's important to remember that he is making political arguments, not legal arguments. He doesn't have any authority over the decisions of the ECHR.

However, I agree that the political argument he is unintentionally conveying is 'leave the ECHR'.

Given that some prominent remainers are cheerleaders for his 'women don't have rights' approach, it would be ironic if their eventual legacy is to provide the rational for the UK leaving the ECHR.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:24

ILikeDungs · 16/10/2025 16:09

I am tasting the desperation. Hunt did not look happy at the end of that clip

And, of course, O' Flaherty sent that letter to Sarah Owen, chair of the Women and Equalities committee, who we all know was seething at the recent appointment of Mary Anne Stephenson, as was Baronness Kennedy. They will be feverishly plotting and exerting maximum pressure within the Labour party for parliament to over-turn the Supreme court's ruling, and certainly not to ratify it.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:28

ILikeDungs · 16/10/2025 16:09

I am tasting the desperation. Hunt did not look happy at the end of that clip

Yes, it was a picture of earnest desire finally meeting face to face with reality. The look of someone who finally acknowledges that the game is over.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:31

Merrymouse · 17/10/2025 08:23

Yes, I think it's important to remember that he is making political arguments, not legal arguments. He doesn't have any authority over the decisions of the ECHR.

However, I agree that the political argument he is unintentionally conveying is 'leave the ECHR'.

Given that some prominent remainers are cheerleaders for his 'women don't have rights' approach, it would be ironic if their eventual legacy is to provide the rational for the UK leaving the ECHR.

It's the same witn those that oppose Reform by calling everyone a racist and demonising them...it simply makes it all the more likely that Reform will be elected. When the tide is turning, playing King Canute is futile.

Merrymouse · 17/10/2025 09:32

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:24

And, of course, O' Flaherty sent that letter to Sarah Owen, chair of the Women and Equalities committee, who we all know was seething at the recent appointment of Mary Anne Stephenson, as was Baronness Kennedy. They will be feverishly plotting and exerting maximum pressure within the Labour party for parliament to over-turn the Supreme court's ruling, and certainly not to ratify it.

It's the law now and has been sine 2010 - no ratification necessary

They can change the law using the normal parliamentary process, but I don't believe that any more than a minority of MPs want to do that.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:33

Merrymouse · 17/10/2025 09:32

It's the law now and has been sine 2010 - no ratification necessary

They can change the law using the normal parliamentary process, but I don't believe that any more than a minority of MPs want to do that.

Hasn't it still got to be approved by Parliament ? Put before them and voted on?

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:38

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:33

Hasn't it still got to be approved by Parliament ? Put before them and voted on?

Edited

"Following this, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) is revising its guidance, a process that includes submitting the updated code to the government for ministerial approval and then to Parliament for a 40-day review"

When is this review period over, surely it already is?

Merrymouse · 17/10/2025 09:47

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:33

Hasn't it still got to be approved by Parliament ? Put before them and voted on?

Edited

That is the EHRC guidance, but the guidance isn't the law.

As per their latest statement

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/news/ehrc-urges-government-ensure-accurate-statutory-guidance-equality-act-available

"The EHRC provides expert advice on how to comply with the Equality Act and put the law into practice."

Baroness Faulkner has said

“The content in this version of the code currently in force is based on the EHRC's previous misinterpretation of the Equality Act 2010. The practical implications of this are that the 2011 code is now unlawful and will continue to be so until the minister makes an order to withdraw it."

This does not mean that the law has changed, but that the previous guidance was wrong.

Similarly HMRC provide guidance, but that does not mean that their guidance couldn't be ruled as incorrect by a judge in the light of statute and case law.

Bannedontherun · 17/10/2025 10:12

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:38

"Following this, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) is revising its guidance, a process that includes submitting the updated code to the government for ministerial approval and then to Parliament for a 40-day review"

When is this review period over, surely it already is?

You are confusing the EHRC guidance with the Supreme Court ruling.

The judges ruling on the meaning of the Equality Act is the final say, and does not go before parliament at all.

The only way that parliament could deal with the meaning of the Equalities Act is to amend it and all the legislative processes that would involve.

I cannot imagine there will be an appetite for changing the meaning of sex in an act, to mean your sex is a self declared matter. Not even this government is that stupid.

napody · 17/10/2025 16:09

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/10/2025 09:31

It's the same witn those that oppose Reform by calling everyone a racist and demonising them...it simply makes it all the more likely that Reform will be elected. When the tide is turning, playing King Canute is futile.

I don't think the force of the tide is a reason to abandon principles: clear, coherent sets of principles (like actual antiracism). But the ill-thought-through bandwagons (like hitching the T to the LGB without proper debate) have to go.

OP posts:
DuesToTheDirt · 21/10/2025 14:42

@impossibletoday well good!

"O’Flaherty claimed that trans guidance introduced across different areas of society in Britain after the ruling in April by the Supreme Court, which declared that the definition of a woman must be based on biological sex, could exclude trans people from many areas of life."

This suggests that men are excluded from many areas of life unless they can use female-only provision, and you have to be pretty thick not to see how ridiculous that is.

Supreme Court rules on definition of ‘woman’ — what’s at stake?

The court has ruled the definition of ‘a woman’ does not include those with gender recognition certificates, having implications on sex-based rights

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/law/article/what-is-a-woman-supreme-court-6qv3z2f7b

GallantKumquat · 21/10/2025 16:05

What I find remarkable about the letter is that, for a protest against a ruling by the highest sovereign court in the land, it contains no valid legal reasoning that I can discern:

  • Gender identity is covered as an aspect of private life under Article 8 of the Convention. This protection entails an obligation to provide for legal gender recognition, in order to avoid the unsatisfactory situation in which trans people live in an “intermediate zone [as] not quite one gender or the other” (Christine Goodwin v. the United Kingdom).

Actually gender is not. Article 8 is simply a statement on privacy. What is covered is one's sex, which has been interpreted as a matter of privacy, namely that the individual may choose not to disclose one's sex. This right, however, is provisional not absolute, and in particular it is subject to: "national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others".

Not only is disclosure of sex warranted for single sex spaces and services due to a number of those exceptions, but the SC explicitly considered the weighting factors of whether sex disclosure was proportional, contradicting the assertion that "This is particularly important as the Supreme Court did not engage with these human rights issues."

  • The Court has further emphasised the importance of the impact on trans people of a discordance between their social reality and the law, with the coherence of the administrative and legal practices within the domestic system being an important factor in assessing whether there has been a violation of Article 8

Again, this is just a restatement of privacy canard.

  • It should be ensured that steps taken towards implementing the Supreme Court judgment avoid a situation where a person’s legal gender recognition is voided of practical meaning, to the extent that it leaves trans people in an unacceptable “intermediate zone”

Setting aside the fact that the vast majority of trans people do not possess a GRC, There is no legal justification for this statement. In addition the SC judge leaves no ambiguity. The GRC is valid for situations where it expedites the process for obtaining courtesy of address for one's gender and has no validity on whether one has access to single sex services or spaces. In no sense is the trans person in an intermediate zone. But, see below for the veiled meaning of 'inclusion'.

  • Where possible, inconsistencies within the domestic system, particularly with regard to the interplay between key legal frameworks such as the Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act, which could lead to legal uncertainty or to dissonance between the lived experiences of trans people and their treatment in law, should be avoided.

avoiding "inconsistencies within the domestic system" goes without saying for any legal code, and is precisely what the SC ruling resolved. Of course O’Flahery can't be bothered to justify his statement.

  • As I note in my end-of-visit statement, I observe a tendency to see the human rights of different groups as a zero-sum game. This has contributed to narratives which build on prejudice against trans people and portray upholding their human rights as a de facto threat to the rights of others. Such a zero-sum approach risks certain inferences being drawn from the UK Supreme Court judgment that could lead to widespread exclusion of trans people from many public spaces. This, in turn, may severely infringe on their ability to participate fully and equally in society.This is particularly the case, as discussions about how access to services and facilities will have to be regulated following the judgment have tended towards the exclusion of trans people. It would therefore be crucial for all stakeholders to receive clear guidance on how inclusion of trans people can be achieved across all areas, and how exclusion can be minimised to situations in which this would be strictly necessary and proportionate, in line with well-established human rights principles. In reality, tensions between the human rights of different groups in this context are likely to be exceptional in nature, and resolvable through nuanced, reasonable and balanced accommodations. This would also be in line with the approaches taken by various bodies of the Council of Europe (such as the Committee on the Prevention of Torture (CPT) or the Group of Experts on Violence Against Women (GREVIO)), which recognise the particular vulnerability of trans people, and which begin from the position of their inclusion within spaces according to their gender identity – with exceptions made on a case-by-case basis as necessary.

Most of this is simply boiler plate bromide without legal reasoning - rights are not a pie! exclusion! But there is an issue underlying this that I consider valid which is this: trans individuals who've undergone significant, voluntary body modification can be excluded from their appropriate sexed service on the grounds that their presentation would be distressing. IMO this should be rectified in law by 1. enacting a process to verify biological sex and 2. by mandating that trans people, irrespective of their presentation, should have access to single sex services of their natal sex. But of course that is so completely unacceptable to TRAs that the problem can only be obliquely referred to, as though the only solution to 'inclusion' is access to opposite sex services and spaces.

  • Another area of concern is that blanket practices or policies on access to gender-segregated spaces could be put in place, which would require trans people to habitually “out” themselves publicly when accessing services or facilities, either directly (by being asked about their sex assigned at birth) or indirectly (by having to use services or facilities in such a way that it becomes apparent they are trans). Forced or non-consensual disclosure of private data falls within the sphere of private life under Article 8 of the Convention (see Bazhenov and Others v. Russia in relation to disclosure of sexual orientation). While this right is not absolute and can be subject to limitations in the interests of a number of grounds, this may only be done in accordance with the law, when necessary in a democratic society and proportionate to the aim sought. Disclosure requirements may have significant implications not only for trans people, but for others too, especially for those whose gender expression does not conform to their gender identity. Beyond privacy concerns, being forced to disclose sex assigned at birth may also significantly increase people’s vulnerability to harassment, abuse and even violence

This is just a recapitulation of the highly conditional Article 8 rights mentioned above - accessing a single sex service in and of itself justifies the disclosure of one's sex as setting up such a service must itself be justified.

This letter reads as a determined effort to convince the UK to abandon the ECHR entirely and it mystifies me why O’Flahery undertakes it in such a cavalier fashion.

The letter

https://rm.coe.int/letter-to-parliament-and-house-of-commons-of-te-united-kingdom-by-mich/488028ddd7

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/10/2025 16:15

This protection entails an obligation to provide for legal gender recognition, in order to avoid the unsatisfactory situation in which trans people live in an “intermediate zone [as] not quite one gender or the other”

There's only one way to avoid being in an "intermediate zone", which is to accept living as the sex you actually are.

You can never actually become the opposite sex. Rejecting and trying to conceal your actual sex is what puts you in an intermediate zone.

lcakethereforeIam · 21/10/2025 16:16

He's completely 'genocided' the nonbins with that. That's their whole shtick.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/10/2025 16:18

lcakethereforeIam · 21/10/2025 16:16

He's completely 'genocided' the nonbins with that. That's their whole shtick.

Oh don't start.

They think NBs should be legally recognised.

Legally recognised as what, exactly? For what purpose?

Merrymouse · 21/10/2025 16:23

GallantKumquat · 21/10/2025 16:05

What I find remarkable about the letter is that, for a protest against a ruling by the highest sovereign court in the land, it contains no valid legal reasoning that I can discern:

  • Gender identity is covered as an aspect of private life under Article 8 of the Convention. This protection entails an obligation to provide for legal gender recognition, in order to avoid the unsatisfactory situation in which trans people live in an “intermediate zone [as] not quite one gender or the other” (Christine Goodwin v. the United Kingdom).

Actually gender is not. Article 8 is simply a statement on privacy. What is covered is one's sex, which has been interpreted as a matter of privacy, namely that the individual may choose not to disclose one's sex. This right, however, is provisional not absolute, and in particular it is subject to: "national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others".

Not only is disclosure of sex warranted for single sex spaces and services due to a number of those exceptions, but the SC explicitly considered the weighting factors of whether sex disclosure was proportional, contradicting the assertion that "This is particularly important as the Supreme Court did not engage with these human rights issues."

  • The Court has further emphasised the importance of the impact on trans people of a discordance between their social reality and the law, with the coherence of the administrative and legal practices within the domestic system being an important factor in assessing whether there has been a violation of Article 8

Again, this is just a restatement of privacy canard.

  • It should be ensured that steps taken towards implementing the Supreme Court judgment avoid a situation where a person’s legal gender recognition is voided of practical meaning, to the extent that it leaves trans people in an unacceptable “intermediate zone”

Setting aside the fact that the vast majority of trans people do not possess a GRC, There is no legal justification for this statement. In addition the SC judge leaves no ambiguity. The GRC is valid for situations where it expedites the process for obtaining courtesy of address for one's gender and has no validity on whether one has access to single sex services or spaces. In no sense is the trans person in an intermediate zone. But, see below for the veiled meaning of 'inclusion'.

  • Where possible, inconsistencies within the domestic system, particularly with regard to the interplay between key legal frameworks such as the Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act, which could lead to legal uncertainty or to dissonance between the lived experiences of trans people and their treatment in law, should be avoided.

avoiding "inconsistencies within the domestic system" goes without saying for any legal code, and is precisely what the SC ruling resolved. Of course O’Flahery can't be bothered to justify his statement.

  • As I note in my end-of-visit statement, I observe a tendency to see the human rights of different groups as a zero-sum game. This has contributed to narratives which build on prejudice against trans people and portray upholding their human rights as a de facto threat to the rights of others. Such a zero-sum approach risks certain inferences being drawn from the UK Supreme Court judgment that could lead to widespread exclusion of trans people from many public spaces. This, in turn, may severely infringe on their ability to participate fully and equally in society.This is particularly the case, as discussions about how access to services and facilities will have to be regulated following the judgment have tended towards the exclusion of trans people. It would therefore be crucial for all stakeholders to receive clear guidance on how inclusion of trans people can be achieved across all areas, and how exclusion can be minimised to situations in which this would be strictly necessary and proportionate, in line with well-established human rights principles. In reality, tensions between the human rights of different groups in this context are likely to be exceptional in nature, and resolvable through nuanced, reasonable and balanced accommodations. This would also be in line with the approaches taken by various bodies of the Council of Europe (such as the Committee on the Prevention of Torture (CPT) or the Group of Experts on Violence Against Women (GREVIO)), which recognise the particular vulnerability of trans people, and which begin from the position of their inclusion within spaces according to their gender identity – with exceptions made on a case-by-case basis as necessary.

Most of this is simply boiler plate bromide without legal reasoning - rights are not a pie! exclusion! But there is an issue underlying this that I consider valid which is this: trans individuals who've undergone significant, voluntary body modification can be excluded from their appropriate sexed service on the grounds that their presentation would be distressing. IMO this should be rectified in law by 1. enacting a process to verify biological sex and 2. by mandating that trans people, irrespective of their presentation, should have access to single sex services of their natal sex. But of course that is so completely unacceptable to TRAs that the problem can only be obliquely referred to, as though the only solution to 'inclusion' is access to opposite sex services and spaces.

  • Another area of concern is that blanket practices or policies on access to gender-segregated spaces could be put in place, which would require trans people to habitually “out” themselves publicly when accessing services or facilities, either directly (by being asked about their sex assigned at birth) or indirectly (by having to use services or facilities in such a way that it becomes apparent they are trans). Forced or non-consensual disclosure of private data falls within the sphere of private life under Article 8 of the Convention (see Bazhenov and Others v. Russia in relation to disclosure of sexual orientation). While this right is not absolute and can be subject to limitations in the interests of a number of grounds, this may only be done in accordance with the law, when necessary in a democratic society and proportionate to the aim sought. Disclosure requirements may have significant implications not only for trans people, but for others too, especially for those whose gender expression does not conform to their gender identity. Beyond privacy concerns, being forced to disclose sex assigned at birth may also significantly increase people’s vulnerability to harassment, abuse and even violence

This is just a recapitulation of the highly conditional Article 8 rights mentioned above - accessing a single sex service in and of itself justifies the disclosure of one's sex as setting up such a service must itself be justified.

This letter reads as a determined effort to convince the UK to abandon the ECHR entirely and it mystifies me why O’Flahery undertakes it in such a cavalier fashion.

The letter

https://rm.coe.int/letter-to-parliament-and-house-of-commons-of-te-united-kingdom-by-mich/488028ddd7

Edited

Agree with all of this, but would also add that many people now do say that their identity is "not quite one gender or the other” .

There is a chasm between what is meant by 'trans' now and what transexual meant when Goodwin went to court.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 21/10/2025 16:28

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/10/2025 16:15

This protection entails an obligation to provide for legal gender recognition, in order to avoid the unsatisfactory situation in which trans people live in an “intermediate zone [as] not quite one gender or the other”

There's only one way to avoid being in an "intermediate zone", which is to accept living as the sex you actually are.

You can never actually become the opposite sex. Rejecting and trying to conceal your actual sex is what puts you in an intermediate zone.

Quite. There is no possibility of a human ever changing sex, and the rights of women to single sex spaces are necessary and should not be subjected to subordination to benefit men with gender identities.

Men can be men with gender identities. If they choose to frame it this way then this is something they want seen and treated as being different to being a man, and that's fine, but it does not make them women either. They have entered a third group, and that third group needs its own resources.

Some of those may be mixed sex provisions that men and women (who are happy to define themselves as men and women) would also have access to using. Some may be specific resources exclusive to that group of men with gender identities such as prison units, rape crisis services/refuges etc.

The beef really is 'you're saying we're not real women/there's a women's thing that we haven't taken off women yet'. And this needs to be dragged out into the sunlight. Because the answer is simply 'you're going to have to live with this because women have equal rights to yours and reality exists. However upset this makes you.'

The idea of occasional exceptional situations where someone of that sex with a gender identity could be excluded from provisions for that sex due to the impact on other users is a rational one: for example traumatised women in a rape crisis service may not be able to cope with women who present outwardly as men. In which case, the SCJ is clear that alternative facilities should obviously be provided. And that isn't unfair exclusion. As said from the start of the judgment release, if you make the decision to radically change your appearance in a way that will impact others, you are going to have to accept some responsibility for this. It is not up to the rest of the world to do all of the work of accommodating you: there needs to be reasonable reciprocation.

And that is always where the gender identity movement comes unstuck. It only takes, it never gives.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 21/10/2025 16:32

Actually in fairness: it is men with gender identities who are entirely about take without giving. Women with gender identities are known to voice more consideration and awareness of impact on other women.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/10/2025 09:10

napody · 17/10/2025 16:09

I don't think the force of the tide is a reason to abandon principles: clear, coherent sets of principles (like actual antiracism). But the ill-thought-through bandwagons (like hitching the T to the LGB without proper debate) have to go.

But sometimes' principles' can often be inflexible and ideologically shaped and formed ..so sticking to the idea/principle of 'open borders' and 'inclusivity' and suggesting that the principles of 'border control' and 'exclusivity' are racist etc...doesn't make the tide that is turning towards 'control' and 'boundaries' go away.

Shabana Mahmood is now espousing these zeitgeist principles......but Labour did not face up to their necessity until only very recently....and probably now too late to stop the Reform surge.