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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Bench Book has been updated following the SC judgement

45 replies

WallaceinAnderland · 11/10/2025 18:19

Not sure if it has already been posted but very pleased to see this. From page 193.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/ETBB-July-2024-May-2025-update.pdf

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/ETBB-July-2024-May-2025-update.pdf

OP posts:
BorneBackCeaselesslyIntoThePas · 11/10/2025 23:58

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2025 23:50

'Can not rewrite history'

Excellent.

I need to quote this stuff next time I get scolded on her for not referring to my brother as she.

If these points are good enough for the bar, then I sure as hell think they are also fair enough when talking about my own life.

I doubt it (he says bitterly) families exist in their own space

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2025 00:01

BorneBackCeaselesslyIntoThePas · 11/10/2025 23:58

I doubt it (he says bitterly) families exist in their own space

I don't give a shit what my brother thinks. That ship sailed long ago.

And I think even less of the woke scolders on here. It makes it more difficult for them to say I'm being remotely unreasonable with this update though.

potpourree · 12/10/2025 00:04

a female rape victim may find it incomprehensible if the judge and others in court refer to her biologically male attacker as “she”.

Wow! This is real change from what was put in previously. And to explicitly say it can be "incomprehensible".

Thanks for the heads-up, OP.

highame · 12/10/2025 08:43

My real issue is that this happened in the first place. Surely there is a level of intelligence in our judiciary that would have questioned all the impacts of gender ideology. I have followed this for a good long time and gave my views to the Judicial college. At least, in it's favour, the ETBB is updated regularly and does take account of legal and other changes, but whilst it was picking it's nose and scratching it's arse, women suffered.

nauticant · 12/10/2025 09:36

Like @AutumnedCrowI think Medcalf actually had 4 support beings in the room. There was his Mam, the dog, a technical support person, and an unspecified other support person, and that person scarpered when it was made clear they'd have to identify themselves.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 12/10/2025 11:11

Hoardasurass · 11/10/2025 20:13

Paragraph 34 is 1 of my favourite parts

the last line of that is 👌👌

outofdate · 12/10/2025 12:31

Absolutely wonderful update. Reddit will be in meltdown.

PoshCoffee · 12/10/2025 12:35

RMW must be spitting feathers

PastaAllaNorma · 12/10/2025 12:45

PoshCoffee · 12/10/2025 12:35

RMW must be spitting feathers

RMW will be spitting brass tacks.

Sad times

Greyskybluesky · 12/10/2025 12:48

outofdate · 12/10/2025 12:31

Absolutely wonderful update. Reddit will be in meltdown.

They haven't woken up to it yet!

There's a post explaining how to report Sex Matters as a "hate organisation" though...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/10/2025 12:49

WallaceinAnderland · 11/10/2025 19:12

Para 17 makes a good point

Typically, it should be unproblematic for the judge to use the trans person’s preferred name and pronouns (“he/she” or “they”), regardless of whether they have obtained a GRC. However, where one side’s case hinges on the recognition of the biological sex of the trans person as crucial, and the other side on the recognition of their chosen identification, judges need to be careful not to let the choice of gendered pronouns give an appearance of bias, or that there is a predetermined conclusion.

Brilliant.

Igmum · 12/10/2025 18:20

Excellent news <rubs hands together>

IIRC in the Bailey case the judge was somewhat surprised to see the emotional support solicitor in the room with KM.

Catiette · 12/10/2025 18:57

highame · 12/10/2025 08:43

My real issue is that this happened in the first place. Surely there is a level of intelligence in our judiciary that would have questioned all the impacts of gender ideology. I have followed this for a good long time and gave my views to the Judicial college. At least, in it's favour, the ETBB is updated regularly and does take account of legal and other changes, but whilst it was picking it's nose and scratching it's arse, women suffered.

I'm finding myself reading all this with very mixed feelings.

Yes, there's immense relief. But, tbh, my main feeling right now is anger. To see what we all always knew laid out in such bald language is truly damning. All these explicit references to (paraphrasing) previous so-called good practice in fact hobbling witnesses, rewriting history and actively preventing understanding. I mean, what it acknowledges is absolutely... well... criminal! Given these acknowledgements, are they going to re-hear all those cases impacted in this way and to this degree, and compensate victims like Maria MacLachlan, then? (Facetious, ofc they're not, but...)

...It makes me think of sport. Both here and in the arena of sport, teeny tiny, incremental details are deemed hugely important to justice and fairness. Boxers literally cut their hair to meet rigid weight requirements, cyclists and swimmers respect intricate parameters to manage aerodynamic advantage, and barristers adhere to any number of arcane rules deemed necessary to the proceedings... Set that against the blasé, "Oh, male bodies can compete against female ones if a single inadequate difference, testosterone, is addressed to one arbitrarily limited degree" and the psychologically devastating "You must call your attacker, who used his male advantage against you to life-changing effect, 'she'" - and it really brings home why we need feminism.

SinnerBoy · 12/10/2025 19:27

“Deadnaming” is a term used where a trans person, in the course of transitioning or having transitioned, is called by their birth name, or where their birth name is otherwise referred to, instead of their chosen name. In court, witnesses may refer to a person by their deadname if this is how they knew them

If only the scam deed poll site operators had read this, they may not have written a load of bullying about "deadnaming" being illegal. The twats.

RobinStrike · 13/10/2025 15:38

Is the Bench Book applied in ET? Will the Darlington nurses tribunal have this applied in terms of calling Rose he/him etc? Will it mean attempts to introduce gendered language as JR did in Sandy Peggie’s tribunal will not be accepted?

HermioneWeasley · 13/10/2025 18:54

RobinStrike · 13/10/2025 15:38

Is the Bench Book applied in ET? Will the Darlington nurses tribunal have this applied in terms of calling Rose he/him etc? Will it mean attempts to introduce gendered language as JR did in Sandy Peggie’s tribunal will not be accepted?

Yes the ETBB applies in employment tribunals and I believe in Peggie the claimant and her counsel were free to use correct sex pronouns

SidewaysOtter · 13/10/2025 21:59

Jane Russell KC take note, bearing in mind how many times she wittered on in the Sandie Peggie tribunal hearings about Beth Upton being misgendered.

Sad times for the preferred pronoun brigade.

CautiousLurker01 · 13/10/2025 22:15

SidewaysOtter · 13/10/2025 21:59

Jane Russell KC take note, bearing in mind how many times she wittered on in the Sandie Peggie tribunal hearings about Beth Upton being misgendered.

Sad times for the preferred pronoun brigade.

My heart weeps for all concerned…

JanesLittleGirl · 13/10/2025 22:39

CautiousLurker01 · 13/10/2025 22:15

My heart weeps for all concerned…

Sad times

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