Civil service union’s turmoil over toilets for transgender staff

[Igneococcus]

I don't see this shared yet:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/cbe30ef3-a588-410b-8c7d-4e9912890120?shareToken=5e5dba6cda7af4c2df5ae68c361e8edb

come on

gender neutral toilets are not illegal

are there separate male and female disabled toilets in most work places?

it's good to advocate for single sex spaces, but better not to make stuff up.

They would be the ones playing chicken wit other peoples money.

If it was their own bank account 👀 house 👀and pension 👀 on the line 99.99999999999% would discover themselves be the furtherest "Far Right" of the "Far Right" that is possible to be on the issue. 🙄

Haha yes. But don't forget that no-one knows who is a man or a woman. We can't actually tell the difference, supposedly. Do you know what you are? Have you checked your chromosomes?

I do have some sympathy with organisations who will have to step up and tackle (metaphorically) the entitled males who ignore the law and walk into the women's. If these men are employees though, repeated behaviour of this kind would surely be subject to a disciplinary. And if they are customers, I suppose it's a matter of making it clear what is expected, and acting on complaints, as businesses used to, and calling the police for threatening or abusive behaviour. Eventually I hope we will get back to the pre-GI situation, where men just kept out of the women's because that's what men did.

Its like the ruling never happened

It's better than that! Someone on MN (sorry I forget who!) described the SC judgment as like the Normandy Landings. Yes they were a decisive moment in WWII but the battle still had to be fought hand to hand all the way to Berlin. Or, it's like women were digging a long tunnel with only a bent spoon and the SC gave us our shovel back. Still got to keep digging. Which reminds me to have a look at the crowdfunders for this month....

The 1992 Regulations are about sex
they make no mention of gender

they require a female and a male toilet for every 25 (or part thereof) employees
its incredibly simple.

Any work staff toilet that forces men and women to use the same space without full washing facilities
is illegal
and has been since 1992

I think the 25 people rule is in factory regulations, that only apply a) to factories that were b) built prior to some fairly long ago date.

The 1992 workplace regs say that the toilet facilities have to be "sufficient".

On a careful reading, shared handwashing faclities do appear to comply with the 1992 regulations. But the sanitary conveniences have to be separated by sex, or in individual floor-to-ceiling rooms.

@MyAmpleSheep
Workplace.
Every office, shop, everything
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/20

Can you find a "one toilet per 25 people" rule in those regulations?

I was saying earlier that it's kinda inevitable that there will have to be an amendment to the EqA at some point. We're now so far behind the rest of western Europe that once the moral panic has subsided somewhat, it's going to be a constant point of shame for the UK.

I said before, no trans person is going to 'out' themselves and put them at risk of violence and harassment for the sake of a bunch of social conservatives who hate trans people and as it turns out, nobody is and just carry on as normal, but now without the rights to protect them.

Or, men will just have to use the men’s loos and changing rooms with the other members of their sex. The very few that genuinely pass as women will probably be able to deceive people, but not so much in the workplace where people are likely to know. No need to change the Equality Act, but that’s probably on the way out tbh, not that that’s in any way a good thing for anyone.

Also, reading some of what people write on here, I see it's super important that there are trans voices in this 'echo chamber'. Shame that the mods don't ban certain slurs and whatnot

Actually, given where I am, there's a chance that you do 😂

‘Trans people can’t be expected to obey the law silly!’

You not going to come back and chat on the thread you started about your mad website bee?

Even for single occupancy fully enclosed toilet & sink? My workplace has always had single room unisex toilets for staff and visitors use, one of which is wheelchair-friendly.

Happily, very little pissing on the seat or general grimness. That's not always the case when I visit unisex loos in public though 😷

I guess they’ll have to if their employer makes the ladies’ loos and changing rooms off limits to them? Not my problem if they can find some sort of third space solution, I’ll only be complaining if there are men in female spaces.

Quite!

”Women who don’t want men in their loos and changing rooms are just like the Klan, man!”

Three logical fallacies in one is quite impressive really.

1) Straw man: Misrepresenting people who wish for single-sex bathrooms as "hating" trans people.
2) Ad hominem: Attributing hatred to the person rather than addressing their reasoning.
3) False analogy: equating support for following the law regarding bathroom allocation, with support for a racist hate group.

I was saying earlier that it's kinda inevitable that there will have to be an amendment to the EqA at some point.

I think this is the appropriate thing to campaign for, certainly much more honest than refusing to obey the existing law or claiming it's unclear.

I don't think it's a vote winner though; now the topic is live with the public rather than happening by stealth I think it would be really unpopular to legislate for men in women's toilets. And that's very much how it will be framed and seen.

For completeness (although I'm quite sure I'm the only person who cares) the one toilet per 25 people rule is in part 2 of schedule 1 to the Workplace Regulations 1992 and, per 20(3) of those same regulations, it applies only to premises which prior to the coming into force of the 1992 regulations were subject to the provisions of the Factories Act 1961.

So now you know.

I was saying earlier that it's kinda inevitable that there will have to be an amendment to the EqA at some point.

I think this is the appropriate thing to campaign for, certainly much more honest than refusing to obey the existing law or claiming it's unclear.

What exactly would you campaign for? Some men want to use the Ladies loos, come what may. In the past those proposing to "Change sex" i.e. have surgery, had to "live as women" for two years. Which seemed to mean putting on a dress and slapping a load of make up on and then use women's loos. Are you going to campaign for those to get a free pass? Are you going to bother to ask the women? How are you going to exclude the voyeurs and perverts, who have no intention of having surgery?

Unless you can identify which men belong into which category, the only safe rule is to keep all men out. And until about 30 years ago, that was pretty much the accepted rule and "Gender" outside the world of languages and grammar was nonsense.

For completeness (although I'm quite sure I'm the only person who cares) the one toilet per 25 people rule is in part 2 of schedule 1 to the Workplace Regulations 1992 and, per 20(3) of those same regulations, it applies only to premises which prior to the coming into force of the 1992 regulations were subject to the provisions of the Factories Act 1961.

Are you claiming that any business which fails to fall with in the Factories Act 1961 has no obligation to provide toilets for staff?

1. I guess the UK will just have to live with the "shame" of upholding women's rights and clarifying the law, despite what the rest of western Europe thinks.

2. "now without the rights to protect them" - what rights were those?