Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 3

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

And here’s Sophie Ellis-Bextor sadly not getting it …

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/sophie-ellis-bextor-perimenopop-interview-b2838867.html

I had a proper moment of realisation when I read a book on menopause with my bookgroup a few years ago. I don't know why I hadn't twigged before but it just made me see that for women one of our common experiences is that our whole life course is dictated and directed by biological change, or concerns about, or fear of, that change, in a way that men's simply isn't. Men become men, they live as men and then they die. Of course they age and will gradually experience change to their bodies related to that, accidents etc but ultimately that complete lack of control over your own body and always anticipating the next change (whether is is expected in weeks eg a period, months eg a pregnancy or years, eg menopause) is just not something men contend with where almost all biological women, regardless of their sexuality, regardless of whether they have children, and even when their reproductive systems cause them health problems, behave differently from the norm or limit their reproductive choices, live with constant change or an awareness of change throughout their whole adult lives. It honestly hit me so hard when I finally grasped that. It's not just periods (and not everybody has those), it's not just pregnancy and childbirth (and not everybody goes through those), it's not just motherhood (and not everybody does that), it's being constantly at the mercy of your own biology and changing body in a way that simply doesn't happen to men. And when you then add to that being at the mercy of what men want to do to our bodies - the bit I had already grasped! - it is so significant.

Simone de Beauvoir says this (of course) but I can't remember exact quotes. Along the lines of women can never forget that we are animals, but men can claim to be above that stuff.

Along the lines of women can never forget that we are animals, but men can claim to be above that stuff

Then, for good measure, add in all the utter crap about menstruating women spoiling meat or turning milk sour if they touch it. Or menstruating women being isolated (literally) by being banished to huts. I could go on.

The fear of, and contempt for, women, is still alive and well. Thank god for NC and her ilk.

the suggestion of using accessible toilets is one that really pisses me off as a disabled woman. I can't use any other toilet, there isn't enough space, and lost count of the number of times I've had to wait outside the only disabled toilet in a building whilst a man does his daily stinky poo inside, or a woman gets ready for night out inside (changing clothes, doing hair and makeup cause 'the lighting is better'). It plays a big factor in why I now only seek WFH jobs.
Accessible toilets are for disabled people and increasingly they are turning into gender neutral toilets without a thought for how a whole other group could now become discriminated against. Disabled people don't seem to matter in this. Indeed I had a senior union official friend tell me to be sympathetic because trans people have 'shared experiences' of discrimination with disabled people.

Absolutely agree with this.

Thank you for this. You’ve put into words something I was already acutely aware of but in a way that spells it out so blindingly obviously. The background noise of womanhood that we often ‘mute’ to get on with our lives - but it’s always there.

I’m going to refer back to this whenever anyone - usually some young, ‘be kind’, intellectually unengaged ‘feminist’, comes at me with that faux-horrified ‘oh you’re just defining us by our biology, setting us back to a time when women were only valued as baby-machines, are women who can’t have children not real women then? etc…’ I see it everywhere and I want to scream.

I’m in total denial about the Menopause. I just thought ‘that’s me not having periods anymore’. I’m shocked at my own dismissal of it all. I’m gradually allowing myself to process things and your post really hit a nerve with me. Thanks.

Okay then, let's make it 20, and bleeding out of the orifice they're talking through a lot of the time!

Their arse!?

And it’s not just the menopause. It’s the fact that it hits in middle life, when women have other shit to deal with that men largely opt out of. Mine coincided with the onset of a parent’s dementia, mardy teenagers and what I thought would be my dream job becoming a nightmare. Biology and social expectations really does a number on women. I really am in absolute awe of Maria, Sandy and all the brave women who have taken this fight on, because I’m ashamed to say I haven’t drop of their courage.

The reality is trans men will not use the disabled toilets ever. Because what they want is validation by using women’s loos.

@ScoldsBridal That's lovely of you to say and you are very welcome. I was just thinking, imagine if Shakespeare had tried to do the seven ages of man but for women, he wouldn't have got anything else written!

The term 'trans men' is used to describe women who say they are men.

Please can we just use the term 'men' to describe men. It is deliberately confusing as there is no reason whatsoever that a woman shouldn't be using the female toilets.

Bumping this so anyone else working for Leonardo might also see it. You need to find each other!

I was very disappointed when sex matters suggested disabled loos as suitable third spaces.

Would it be progress if the end result of all this was to have more provision? So that instead of a single accessible toilet, there were two, perhaps with one designated "disabled only" and one for anyone who wanted to use it, including parents with prams, trans people, men who want a big poo (well maybe not the men who want a big poo, but I don't know how you'd stop them).

This.

It's like wheelchair spaces on a bus have become able bodied mother with buggy space, but if you suggest that wheelchair users should be prioritised there will be a 40 page bunfight about how there are 101 reasons why the needs of that able bodied person to displace a wheelchair user from access should come first.

It's basically that disabled people, like women, aren't a powerful group with a voice or fashionability. Their resources aren't seen as important, nor is their access seen as important, and the 'terra nullis' thinking creeps in - it's empty ground that could be put to better use for more important things.

And that's before you get on to the howls from TRAs at the suggestion anyway, because apparently using a disabled toilet is somehow 'shameful'.

Which sucks rather for those of us who can't identify out of our wheelchairs.

It will be much harder to make a case of misuse of accessible toilets because of course, not all disabilities are visible, but when someone comes out more glammed up than they were going in, its a good indication they are misusing it.

I used to be a DEI person and got told to stop policing toilets. I wouldn't say I was peaked then, but I started ascending the mountain. So back to the leonardo case, listening to that guy talk about accessible toilets really pissed me off.

Exactly, and me too Sassenach. My blood boils when I read that the solution is to take facilities from a group who have no alternative so that they can cos-play to their hearts content.

As for validating them, sorry, but that's never going to happen. I think we need to take a good hard look at people who need to be validated by total strangers and are so unpleasant. I'm not convinced that we're looking at poor souls trapped in the wrong bodies (altho they may well exist.) We're looking at misogynist sociopathic exhibitionists who have jumped on a bandwagon and are now harming LGB people. I wonder where they'll jump to next?

I totally agree, and I am such a bad person that I screen out anyone who tries to define me in their terms and tell me I'm a disgrace if I don't live according to their rules no matter what they're identifying as. I like sewing and cooking and I enjoyed being with my children and worked around them. I also believe in realistic equality, as in you'll be very disappointed if you're a six foot man expecting 5 ft 2 me to hobble and rescue you from a blazing building and men aren't going to have children for the foreseeable future. Most of all, I'll fight for anyone's right to make a realistic choice.

I have a similar question. Would it be acceptable if (alongside communal single-sex bogs) there were two kinds of universal toilet: "accessible/third space" for disabled people and parents with prams and "private/fourth space" for trans people and those who need extra privacy for any other reason.

The difference would be that the "private" bogs could be half the size of the "accessible" bogs, so there could be twice as many of them.

I guess I'm asking posters here who are disabled: Are you OK about sharing accessible toilets with parents with prams, as long as other able-bodied people keep out, and as long as enough accessible bogs are available?

No.

Being a parent with a pram is temporary. My disabilities are for ever.

sorry.

I know that’s how it is in a lot of places but after one of my surgeries I was left for a time with when I needed to go I needed to go now. And I wet myself waiting as a woman and two kids came out (not with a buggy)

I know I might have had to wait if there has been a disabled person in the loo but opening it to people with toddlers as well means people like me are more likely to wet themselves. So no.

I recommend the Indian film Pad Man (Netflix?) a true story of a husband who wanted to make clean sanitary products available to the less well off women, who were using old rags every month. He faced all kinds of opposition, including from his wife who was horrified and shamed by a public discussion of the monthly period. Watching it, you can feel how shocking it was to mention such things. Are we so different? He was an engineer, by the way!

Fair enough!