Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 3

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

I think it's great to see a Leonardo Andy Fan here providing detail that will make him recognisable to Andy.

Andy is going to need a lot of help on his return to make sure that he is following the law in his work duties, and that no-one at Leonardo treats Maria unfavourably as a consequence of the tribunal. I'm sure Andy will value support from his colleague in making that happen

I have finished catching up on this thread and just wanted to come back to this. I thought I heard ST say that this was a point of an operational note (or similar) where this would be read to all witnesses. She couldn't remember if she had already done this and wanted to do it now. I took it as at last-minute arse covering to ensure there was no procedural issue to pick up on. IANAL and the sound was so poor that I may have completely misunderstood!

It's always interesting comparing the text commentary to the video. TT gets the content but obviously can't convey the tone, the body language, the pauses, or the awkward dry coughs. AL not only came across as defensive (somewhat understandably), but he had an air of superiority, that this was beneath him. It was also clear that at no point had he ever engaged in really thinking about the issue, nor would he in future. L are inclusive, there are no issues because everyone there is lovely and nice.

I think that perhaps some men think in terms of 'proper men' and 'everyone else'.

What i dont understand is, if all the men and male visitors were safe, what's the risk to other men in the men's facilities?

Andy Russell Letton said Leonardo Uk gets advice from Make UK. Great testamonial for them, given under oath no less. They should add that to their website.

https://www.makeuk.org/become-a-member

Pinna, or auricle

I am not surprised at Andy not having heard of Maya. My husband says he wouldn’t have known about this stuff if it weren’t for me. Politics was rarely discussed at work. It wasn’t like being a teacher or social worker. They discussed work and hobbies. Andy being a HR bloke and tasked with being Leonardo’s sole representative should have made more effort to know the intricacies of gender legal cases, but from my husband’s description of the management I’m not surprised he didn’t

Did you watch his performance on the witness stand?

Did you listen to how little he thinks of the women in the company?

Did you listen to him admit not reading the bundle or the actual claim?

Did you watch him totally unbothered as he basically admitted the company (and I paraphrase) couldn't give a fuck about what the actual law is?

"That's your view," as he said to NC when told he wasn't following the law.

I bet he says that to all the 'girls'.

@SinnerBoy they definitely got not just policy but also legal advice from Make UK - provider of this training course:
https://www.makeuk.org/training/all-training-courses/transgender-awareness

@flopsyuk found this info document produced by Make UK "10 ways to support your trans employees" - see point 10 in particular regarding toilets (www.makeuk.org/system/files/documents/Make%20UK%20HRL%20-%20Transgender%2010%20Ways%20to%20Support%20Oct%202023.pdf)

Yesterday at 12:31 he said "we get advice from Make UK"
and at 12:48
ST If there are issues where L needs further advice what steps taken
AR Make UK, would check with them

And yesterday at 14.55 he references a Make UK solicitor that they "reached out to for clarity on law"

And Andy is not just a user of Make UK's services - he helps set policy! Yesterday at 12.27:

AR Make UK for employability and skills. I sit on Employment policy and skills committee. We get early access to what's happening, in touch with other employers
ST Do L also have own legal dept
AR Yes. We've used Make UK for number of years. Access to their website, use for policy doc etc

Andy being a HR bloke and tasked with being Leonardo’s sole representative should have made more effort to know the intricacies of gender legal cases, but from my husband’s description of the management I’m not surprised he didn’t

As 'VP People Shared Services', shouldn't he have become aware of it at some point between Maria Kelly asking about policies and the company being taken to an employment tribunal?

Do they pay Make UK for this advice? They should ask for a refund.

@nicepotoftea apparently nobody ever complained. I wonder how he believes he came to be in an employment tribunal? Perhaps only an unperson complained ie. Maria Kelly?

Well none of the men complained and he's proved that's all he gives a shit about.

Also nice there are definitely men who think of "men without a penis" as not men. I've seen it quite a few times where men say that a post-op transwoman is obviously not a man - I've even had this from DH who generally is quite sensible about this stuff. So for quite a few men, it goes:

• men
• some sort of non-men category (ie. what we might call men without a penis)
• women

And then there are people who go one step further and say, like Nursey in Blackadder, well if the man doesn't have a penis it must be a woman because there are no other options.

I had to actually say to DH - if I was Lorena Bobbit, or you had a terrible accident and your penis was amputated, would you then be a woman?? Of course not, you'd still be a man, just a man without a penis!! Before he really got it.

I often have that same thought. I don't think I would be able to help myself from saying something along the lines of the fabulous "it would be unkind of me to ask how that is working out for you" line in response.

Do we think NC was thinking about the level of compensation when she drove this point home? I wondered if she was suggesting Maria’s position could become untenable at Leonardo

I think the view is always support the vulnerable. But both sides are so emotive because you both believe you are the most vulnerable.

If that is the view, it might explain why they have got into a mess.

Compliance with Equality Law is not a charitable act that requires ranking of vulnerabilities. It's often about resolving conflict between groups who just have different needs. There is no need to demonstrate that somebody is vulnerable to make a claim of unlawful discrimination.

An excellent point

Who are these people please

As an 'outsider from either side of the debate' I'm curious how you found your way here. Would you care to share what got you interested? Have you been following the proceedings on Tribunal Tweets or live?

Do you think in this case that they did make a proper effort to look after everyone's needs?

Are you proud of the company's support of women? Are the unions and HR in lockstep on that?

Should supporting the vulnerable be prioritised over the law?

Do you believe women are vulnerable (even if not the most vulnerable)?

Random thought but after needing a long break from the horror of trying to listen to the terrible court audio, I suspect that the vile ex-cop Lynsay Watson inadvertently amplified the interest in the Sandie Peggie tribunal several thousandfold by behaving so badly that the case had to be moved from Ediburgh to Dundee, where remote observers were treated to the luxury of clear sound and vision for far more of the hearing.

Not that there is any lessening the seriousness of his threats, but since the case was moved, and since the sound problems at Edinburgh are so bad, Watson's 'clever' behaviour probably contributed significantly to increasing awareness and support for GC beliefs.

I really hope Edinburgh can get some technicians in to sort out its audio system before the submissions are made in a few weeks.

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1973790113319555426
Great put-down on X ...

By the end of Day 3, @Leonardo_live looked like a company in captivity - held hostage not by hostile forces outside, but by its own unwritten practices and the fashionable orthodoxies it dared not question.
[...]
For a business built on trust, the reputational risk is brutal. A company trusted to deliver fighter jets and radar systems now looks paralysed when asked to defend women’s most basic dignity. Hostages may plead they have no choice. But tribunals judge responsibility, not excuses.

Let's hope so.

I'd never heard of Make UK until a glanced at a thread about them yesterday. From that I assumed they were an organisation along the lines of Stonewall. I'm staggered to find what they're actually supposed to be doing!

Re. Andy L being helpful, supportive and even a bit extra for the PP. It's good to get another opinion to round the guy out a bit. Just shows how the gender nonsense beclowns all it touches.

'Andy L being helpful, supportive and even a bit extra for" a fellow man.