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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Cathandkin · 04/10/2025 14:21

I'm genuinely confused now, would the correct pronoun be "he" or "she"?

Chersfrozenface · 04/10/2025 14:23

Cathandkin · 04/10/2025 14:21

I'm genuinely confused now, would the correct pronoun be "he" or "she"?

He.

Caster Semenya is male, with a DSD which only affects males.

Cathandkin · 04/10/2025 14:24

Chersfrozenface · 04/10/2025 14:23

He.

Caster Semenya is male, with a DSD which only affects males.

Thank you. So how did he pass as female during his sporting career?

Helleofabore · 04/10/2025 14:28

Cathandkin · 04/10/2025 14:24

Thank you. So how did he pass as female during his sporting career?

He didn’t have to ‘pass’. Scrutiny and discussion is very much discouraged now, as it has been for decades now.

Cathandkin · 04/10/2025 14:31

Helleofabore · 04/10/2025 14:28

He didn’t have to ‘pass’. Scrutiny and discussion is very much discouraged now, as it has been for decades now.

Right, so Caster just entered the female races? I'm guessing that it's all about self identification?

Helleofabore · 04/10/2025 14:31

Cathandkin · 04/10/2025 14:21

I'm genuinely confused now, would the correct pronoun be "he" or "she"?

You can choose what suits your belief about pronoun usage.

For instance, I believe in clear and accurate communication about these issues where sex is important. If someone finds it hard to understand the issue because the language is unclear, that is an issue to me.

To add, to me also, pronoun usage is not a ‘reward’ based on respect either. For instance, if a female person stands trial for an egregious crime she will still be a she. Because this is based on fact and clear communication and not on respect.

Chersfrozenface · 04/10/2025 14:56

Cathandkin · 04/10/2025 14:31

Right, so Caster just entered the female races? I'm guessing that it's all about self identification?

Semenya, as far as we know, was registered female at birth.

We know for sure (because of the case at the Court of Arbitration for Sport) that he has a disorder of/difference in sexual development called 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD) which results in ambiguous external genitalia at birth that appear female. This DSD only affects males.

Semenya has internal testes, he has said so himself, and testosterone levels in the male range, which does not overlap with the female range.

The International Olympic Committee, and other sporting organisations, have allowed athletes to compete according to their legal sex, meaning that Semenya and others who have official documents such as birth certificates and passports that describe them as female, have been allowed to compete in women's competitions, despite being male.

Cathandkin · 04/10/2025 15:08

Thank you, @Chersfrozenface . That's a lot clearer now.

DontCallMeLenYouLittleBollix · 04/10/2025 15:28

Lou802 · 04/10/2025 13:33

But he was male and participating in the woman's event, how could he ever have been eligible? It's not retrospective to say men can't run in women's events surely? Or were men allowed to compete if their testosterone levels weren't considered too high at that point?

Edited

This is an outline of the chronology from his debut in 2009 to 2019. There was a fudge for a few years which was eventually successfully challenged.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/01/how-caster-semenya-controversy-unfolded-since-2009-timeline

The legal case it's talking about is the one about whether athletes with the DSD that Caster has could compete in the women's middle distance events without having to reduce their testosterone or not. The article does not of course mention that said DSD only happens to males, and means you have both a Y chromosome and some testes about your person.

He didn't compete in the middle distance after that, couple of not very successful attempts at shorter and longer distances which didn't have the same rules.

How the Caster Semenya controversy has unfolded since 2009 – a timeline

Caster Semenya, the double Olympic champion, has been embroiled in a struggle with the IAAF since winning gold at the world championships in 2009

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/01/how-caster-semenya-controversy-unfolded-since-2009-timeline

Helleofabore · 04/10/2025 15:35

This is the coach who has been said to have scouted for athletes in South Africa, including Caster Semenya. He may or may not have ‘scouted’ for athletes such as Semenya, but he certainly has been active in Semenya’s participation.

Ekkart Arbeit is the sports coach who was coaching the East German women, then came to Athletics Australia in the late 90s ( 1997?) in lead up to Sydney 2000 Olympics to coach the women but they rescinded his contract in 1998. Arbeit eventually ended up as the coach for South Africa in the mid 2000s.
He is a testosterone expert.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-04-22/olympic-champion-hires-former-east-german-drug/1841668

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/further-checks-on-coach-ordered-1.114105

Olympic champion hires former East German drug guru: report

Olympic heptathlon champion Denise Lewis's new coach Frank Dick has recruited the man credited with masterminding the biggest state-sponsored doping program in history to get his athlete into contention for this year's world championships.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-04-22/olympic-champion-hires-former-east-german-drug/1841668

DuesToTheDirt · 04/10/2025 16:02

newroundhere · 04/10/2025 12:25

Is there no way that his medals could be taken away if it can be proven that he was not eligible to participate in the competitions in the first place?

I was looking at chess rules the other day. Trans players have to play in their sex category:

The International Chess Federation, known as FIDE, will effectively stop allowing transgender women from participating in women's competitions until "further analysis" can be made — which could take up to two years.

So far so good. In addition, some titles have been or can be removed, but I really don't follow this.

Transgender men who won in women's events before transitioning will have their titles abolished. The titles could be renewed if a player detransitions and can "prove the ownership of the respective FIDE ID that holds the title," the federation said. Abolished titles may also be transferred into a "general title of the same or lower level."
Meanwhile, transgender women can keep any titles they earned before they transitioned.

So a woman who played as a woman will lose her title if she later "transitions". But a man who played as a man will keep his title if he "transitions" Confused ("transitions" in quotes because I think it's bollocks). It seems they were playing in the right category. And why the difference between men and women?

https://www.npr.org/2023/08/18/1194593562/chess-transgender-fide-pushback

AmandaHoldensLips · 04/10/2025 16:05

Heaven's sake. He's a father!!!!

Helleofabore · 04/10/2025 16:21

HISTORY OF SEX TESTING IN THE OLYMPICS AND THE GROUP WHO SUCCESSFULLY CAMPAIGNED TO HAVE SEX TESTING DROPPED

MAybe this will be helpful. This is my cobbled together timeline

www.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf?origin=ppub&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&utm_term=PID100045542&CJEVENT=f4d4c8630a0411ed831b01a80a1c0e11

Louis J. Elsas ,MD' , Arne Ljungqvist, MD', Malcolm A. Ferguson-Smith, MA,FRCP, JoeLeigh Simpson, MD', Myron Genel, MD5, Alison S. Carlson ,BA, Elizabeth Ferris, MBBS', Albert de la Chapelle, MD, Anke A. Ehrhardt, phD

"On-site gender verification has since been found to be highly discriminatory, and the cause of emotional trauma and social stigmatization for many females with problems of intersex who have been screened out from competition. Despite compelling evidence for the lack of scientific merit for chromosome-based screening for gender, as well as its functional and ethical inconsistencies, the IOC persisted in its policy for 30 years."
"The coauthors of this manuscript have worked with some success to rescind this policy through educating athletes and sports governors regarding the psychological and physical nature of sexual differentiation, and the inequities of genetic sex testing."

1999 - From what I gather, from this Nature article posted up thread, is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the 1999 the OIC removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.
Ie. My understanding is that the group campaigned that any male with a Difference of Sex Development that had been incorrectly registered as 'female' on their passport was to never be sex tested by the IOC again and allowed to compete as if they were female, regardless of whether they had gone through male puberty.

2001 - The IAAF (old name for WA) regulations stated

”Under the IAAF policy, female athletes who wish to participate in international competitions come to the attention of the IAAF in one of two ways. If a female athlete already has been diagnosed with hyperandrogenism (or is in the process of being diagnosed), she is required to notify the IAAF and undergo evaluation (as outlined in the policy). A second route to evaluation is that an “IAAF Medical Manager may initiate a confidential investigation of any female athlete if he [sic] has reasonable grounds for believing that a case of hyperandrogenism may exist” (IAAF 2001c, 3). Reasonable grounds can come from “any reliable source,” including “information received by the IAAF Medical Delegate or other responsible medical official at a competition” (IAAF 2001c, 3).”

2004 - Then in 2004 they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-approves-consensus-with-regard-to-athletes-who-have-changed-sex-1

2009 - Semenya wins and officials felt there was enough concern under 2001c 3 (above) to demand a test done.

This then caused much discussion about how testing ‘requests’ were done and for them to be ‘reconsidered’.

2015 -Then in 2015, a campaign group including Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com web site) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

https://nequals8.com
^https://cgscholar.com/bookstore/works/race-times-for-transgender-athletes^
https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

2016 -Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2021 - 2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.
The IOC reacts by announcing a review.
The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation. ie. They force the sporting federations to make the hard decisions that the IOC refuse to make.

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Human-Rights/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf#_ga=2.219716894.621299853.1686571450-594927581.1678187184

They also reaffirm that 'inclusivity' is their over all priority. They say that safety is as well, but this is clearly contradictory when you consider boxing as an example.

The IOC is clear that they RECOGNISE that the inclusion of male athletes will be UNFAIR but their priority is inclusion. Richard Budgett said this.

The federations then develop their own policies. that have done this are : FINA, WA, UCI, IBA and WR. FIFA for instance announced a review years ago and done nothing. IBA announced their new policy in 22/23.

The WA have even stated that their new guidelines for the Olympics immediately excluded 13 males with DSDs with testosterone advantage from the competitions until those 13 male athletes chose to reduce their testosterone to 2.5 nmol/L for 2 years. 13 just in athletics competitions alone! (By the way, this reduction has already been shown to not eliminate unfair male advantage, but this is where we are at the moment.)

13 MALE PEOPLE WITH DSDs JUST IN ATHLETICS IN 2023.

^https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900^

"Coe said this will impact 13 DSD athletes, seven (55%) of whom compete in running events above a mile, with six (45%) in sprinting events below 400m."

By the IOC removing the IBA (boxing) from organising the boxing, the IOC left boxing only with the IOC inclusive guidelines.

So, we know from the announcement by Budgett from IOC in November 2021 that fairness was a lower priority to inclusion. It was along the lines of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion is our aim.’

And the IOC and other organisations still claim that Semenya is a 'female with naturally high testosterone' to this day. Despite the world being easily able to find the evidence presented to the CAS that Semenya is MALE with 5-ARD and had tested with a testosterone level of 21nmol/L. NO female has that level and is healthy. They are likely to be gravely ill.

2025 - The World Athletics announce their new regulations.

https://worldathletics.org/news/press-releases/sry-gene-test-athletes-female-category

The female athlete category is defined in the Eligibility Rule 3.5, which states that only the following athletes may compete in this category:

a. Biological females.
b. Biological females who have used testosterone as part of male gender-affirming treatment further to a Therapeutic Use Exemption granted in accordance with World Athletics’ Anti-Doping Rules may not compete in the female category until the passing of a period of time after their last use of testosterone (the period of time will be not shorter than four years and will be determined by World Athletics on a case-by-case basis taking into consideration all relevant factors including the timing, duration, dosages and effects of the male gender-affirming treatment).
c. Biological males who have Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and therefore have not gone through male sexual development including any type of male puberty.
d. Biological males with a difference of sex development who satisfy the transitional provisions issued by World Athletics.

The transitional provisions do not apply to transgender women as there are none competing at the elite international level under the current regulations.

https://worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=0a7afe9e-9998-4cbc-a8c5-82c0ac5a80c6.pdf&urlslug=C3.5A%20-%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Implementation%20of%20Eligibility%20Rule%203.5%20(Male%20and%20Female%20Categories)%2C%20effective%2001%20SEP%202025

The ‘transitional provisions’ only apply to legacy athletes. Meaning those already competing in these competitions. As per section 6, page 7 of the above.

These provisions are the reduction of testosterone to below 2.5 nmol/L only for existing competitors.

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

EyesOpening · 04/10/2025 20:11

DuesToTheDirt · 04/10/2025 16:02

I was looking at chess rules the other day. Trans players have to play in their sex category:

The International Chess Federation, known as FIDE, will effectively stop allowing transgender women from participating in women's competitions until "further analysis" can be made — which could take up to two years.

So far so good. In addition, some titles have been or can be removed, but I really don't follow this.

Transgender men who won in women's events before transitioning will have their titles abolished. The titles could be renewed if a player detransitions and can "prove the ownership of the respective FIDE ID that holds the title," the federation said. Abolished titles may also be transferred into a "general title of the same or lower level."
Meanwhile, transgender women can keep any titles they earned before they transitioned.

So a woman who played as a woman will lose her title if she later "transitions". But a man who played as a man will keep his title if he "transitions" Confused ("transitions" in quotes because I think it's bollocks). It seems they were playing in the right category. And why the difference between men and women?

https://www.npr.org/2023/08/18/1194593562/chess-transgender-fide-pushback

I'm guessing that the men who won before transitioning, wouldn't have won in the women's category therefore that's ok.
I'm not sure why a woman, winning a women's category isn't though unless they feel that TWAW and TMAM therefore a "woman" winning a men's competition is ok but a "man" winning a women's, isn't.

DuesToTheDirt · 04/10/2025 20:48

EyesOpening · 04/10/2025 20:11

I'm guessing that the men who won before transitioning, wouldn't have won in the women's category therefore that's ok.
I'm not sure why a woman, winning a women's category isn't though unless they feel that TWAW and TMAM therefore a "woman" winning a men's competition is ok but a "man" winning a women's, isn't.

But why would they think the man wouldn't have won in the women's category? Given that, like physical sports, men have an apparent advantage in chess, whether that's socialisation, chess clubs or whatever. Anyway, it was a man's prize, won by a man, so what would have happened if he had been playing as a woman doesn't matter.

Likewise, why shouldn't the woman keep her women's prize? Whether she later decides she's a man is irrelevant.

Puzzling. Can't get my head round this one.

EyesOpening · 04/10/2025 20:52

Wouldn't have won because they wouldn't have been allowed to enter (as a man).

DuesToTheDirt · 04/10/2025 20:55

EyesOpening · 04/10/2025 20:52

Wouldn't have won because they wouldn't have been allowed to enter (as a man).

But these men keep their titles. It's the women who don't. And they all (well, how many are there? who knows) entered their sex-based competitions as the correct sex.

Sorry, derailing the Caster stuff.

puffyisgood · 06/10/2025 12:23

The mind really does boggle.

Caster Semenya ending 7 year fight against sex eligibility rules.
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