MAKE Southwest - not supporting EHRC or inclusive spaces

[Twoshoesnewshoes]

I live near a MAKE Southwest gallery - a great combo of art gallery, local artists shop, and workshops.
i had noticed that they had signed the open letter recently to say that they Supreme Court ruling regarding the law on single sex provision was unworkable and that they didn’t support it.

i was in there today and spoke to a couple of people in the office about it.
the man in there said he was not aware of the letter. I explained that, if their female toilets are actually mixed sex, these are therefore not inclusive spaces for eg some females who follow Islam or Judaism, or have experienced sexual violence, or either sex who want privacy and dignity from the opposite sex.
he said okay, and that he would pass this on - he was pleasant, polite and objective.

the women in the office said, about the above mentioned females ‘well they can use the accessible toilet which is unisex’
i said, okay, fine, but in not indicating that your women’s loo is actually a mixed sex space, you are not allowing those women to make an informed choice.
she repeated that they could use the accessible toilet, I repeated what I said.
same again.
then I left.

I’m really disappointed that MAKE Southwest are not providing inclusive spaces for females in vulnerable/minority groups.
it’s a great place but I can’t be use a company which doesn’t support inclusivity.

any thoughts?

I'm at an outdoor festival.

They have lots of 'inspirational talks'. I nearly didn't go to one because it was about getting women into outdoor activities but it said anyone who identifies as a woman and that put me off. But I was bored and I was waiting for DH and DS and I had nothing better to do .

So the talk was great. They went on about barrier for entry for women, how outdoor activities were dominated by men and how this was off putting to women and they wanted a safe environment and how women lacked confidence and needed more info. They went into the physicality and how they often talked about physical differences that needed specialist equipment (eg bike seats) periods, menopause and motherhood. All things centred on biology. Great.

But that one line advertising the talk still bothered me and I said to DH 'but they aren't filling me with confidence with that like - we know an instructor who identifies as a woman but he's still got a beard and a male name and is obviously male and he's nice apart from throwing a hissy fit about pronouns. (He's taught DS on occasion). But I don't want to go on an event and be confronted with talking about female biology and have to deal with beardy wankers or worry about sharing facilities with a bloke and this is a barrier for me.

One woman asked a question, and then I knew what was coming next when a beardy wanker stuck his hand up. There's maybe 500 people here, but yep the question was 'do you include transwomen?' and I very nearly made a scene. I didnt because I thought it would cause too many problems for the rest of the weekend and DH and DS would lose out. But of course they undermined absolutely every other fucking thing they'd just said and proved my initial concerns completely right.

No one else wanted to ask a question after that and it struck me as this abject male confidence versus women who don't like asking questions.

It's so fucked up. I'm glad I'd been with DH and made the comments I did to him before beardy wanker said anything as DH was shocked and appalled. His comment was they had the most effective bullying campaign ever to drive women out. He saw it and felt it was intimidating. For a long time, when I've gone on about this he's felt it's me being ott, but he totally recognises the need for women's only outdoor activities because of social conditioning, physical strength issues and general confidence. I think him seeing it in the wild in the pass times he loves (he's more outdoorsy and adventurous than me by a country mile and has seen me struggle with these issues) has shocked him and disappointed him.

The whole idea sounded great but he understands why it just adds to me shutting down and not trusting these womens only events (I went to a brilliant one with friends a couple of years ago), but I wouldnt even consider going alone because of the risk of men invading even though I've done alsorts in the past by myself on my own terms. It's the idea of being 'trapped' with a man in these scenarios which fills me with horror. I'd rather go on a mixed event and be able to pick a single sex option knowing it was single sex but I won't do that because of confidence and make bravado - and I'd do this even less because of this pervasive feeling of not being able to challenge like I should.

So yeah nice idea, utterly ruined by males pissing saying 'but what about the men' and the wet lanes hypocrisy weak women going 'yes that's ok, we'll talk about lack of minority women in the field' whilst simultaneously supporting MRA bullshit. It's so utterly insincere and frankly unlawful (don't get me started on how they've not set themselves up correctly.)

Utter fucking shit show that's probably actually bloody illegal.

Not good.

Why do these organisations think that they can ignore the law? Do they pick and mix as far as other laws go?

@RedToothBrush thanks for sharing.

i know it must be hard to want to, but not to say anything.

i think on this occasion your husband should have spoken out

i know my husband does not like doing so but i made him in the pub incident i mentioned upthread.

we all have to now find our own voices, hang the consequences.

It's a pity that the Speaker didn't have the courage to say - As a Transwoman you are a biological man, so the answer is no, and there are far more sporting opportunities for men than there have ever been for women.

Then question the TRA as to what male sporting events had actually excluded them. Not ones which they just didn't fancy joining because they were pretending they were women.

I'm pissed off.

It's upsetting. This bloody organisation are such bloody let downs because they clearly get the problem but won't actually step up and do anything about it where it matters.

They'd literally just been going on about confidence and events for women with anxiety! And then opened and honesty.

It just left me feeling 'whats the fucking point?!'

Beardy wankers are just there to sit there with smug faces about how much they win. I could see it coming. Id clocked it, commented to DH and it happened as I'd expected it. Totally shut down the whole topic and the entire point of them even being there.

Im sadly not surprised and as I said nearly didn't even bother going to the talk because I saw the weasel words.

I don't want to be involved with a woman's group who don't want to stand to to this crap. It's not up to DH to say shit. It's up to these organisations to prove they are for women without woman (or their other halves) having to cause a fucking scene. I wonder if they actually realised they've totally undermined themselves?

Looking at their Facebook pages they claim to have loads of members but no a single bloody post in weeks for them. So I wonder how women love the idea, join and then fuck off because they get put off by beardy wankers killing the social media. It just seemed weird.

Its not worth my time or effort. I feel alone but also I feel I'm probably best off not even bothering with that shit. It's not in my best interests unfortunately.

How unbelievably frustrating, RedToothbrush.

OP... You could maybe write to the trustees who run MAKE Southwest - you can find a list of them on their about us page.

You could raise the issue with the trustees, pointing out that their policy excludes vulnerable women and is also breaking the law.

One of the trustees is a solicitor:

Ashton hopes that her legal knowledge will help support the charity and her fellow trustees.

She could put her legal knowledge to good use and explain that their organisation shouldn't be breaking the law just because they feel like it.

Red I always read your posts, when i see your name. You are not alone.

There are lots of us here who recognise each other’s names and follow each other.

I watched the interview with Fiona Mckenna today about her book TERF ISLAND, with MrMenno It was so inspiring

The time is coming, there will be a mass unveiling here i know it because somebody somewhere here has already started it.

so hold on i just wish i knew how to push it.

What i want is an FWR rally, that would be a sight to behold.

@ThorsRaven thats a good idea, I’ll do that.
thank you

I'm really sorry this is such a long post!

I've not heard of this place before so I've been looking through their website at their policies and whatnot.

"Q: Who owns MAKE Southwest?
A: As a charity, MAKE Southwest isn’t owned by any one person, instead it is governed by a Board of Trustees.
Q: I would like to find out more about MAKE Southwest’s charitable aims, who can I contact?
A: Please email our CEO, Laura Wasley ([email protected]) who can answer your questions or put you in contact with one of our Trustees!"

They mention children a lot and there's a lot of stuff about safeguarding.
They're also a charity.
I'm not sure if these things mean they have to abide by extra regulations.
I would email Laura and say how I concerned that they are not following the law which has recently been clarified by the Supreme Court ruling (I would include any examples I could find of other places stating their policies inline with the ruling, the bigger the company, the better eg the FA, Virgin)
As it is a charity with a board of Trustees, I think the Trustees are responsible/accountable, with Laura being where the buck stops, if things in the building are not complying with the law. As they obviously deal a lot with children, I think they need to be even more careful that they follow the law.

From hereinafter, it's all copied and pasted from their website or from the government website, followed from things they have stated in their policies. Hopefully you can put together a coherent email from it all!

https://makesouthwest.org.uk/legal

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e7497c486e66800e54a9929/t/66278b9209ae990a9df29598/1713867667999/MSW+Safeguarding+Policy+June+2023.pdf

Some of our workforce have additional responsibilities for safeguarding:
Board of Trustees
The Trustees are ultimately responsible for ensuring that MAKE Southwest workforce members are aware of the policy and are supported to implement and work in accordance with it, as well as creating a management culture that encourages a focus on safeguarding. The MAKE Southwest Trustee Board holds ultimate accountability for this policy. They will:
Ensure safeguarding policies and procedures are in place and being followed;
Ensure there are checks to confirm employees are suitable to carry out their roles;
Ensure thee ine oit tong an eviem po ce t p t sieoea
are being implemented in practice and that the controls in place are effective

• Actively promote a culture and environment whereby all employees are enabled to raise concerns and understand their safeguarding responsibilities;
• Appoint a Safeguarding Trustee on the Board whose role is one of scrutiny, keeping up to date with the Charity Commission requirements for safeguarding and to support the Designated Safety Officer in assessing and managing safeguarding risks.
• Ensure that serious incidents are reported to the Charity Commission for England and
• Support the CEO in managing any safeguarding allegations against members of the
• Ensure that MAKE allocates sufficient resources, including trained staff and trustees, for the arrangements to safeguard and protect children and adults.

1.14 The Safeguarding Trustee is: Andrew North. Designated Safeguarding Officer (DSO) The DSO is responsible for:

• monitoring and recording safeguarding concerns or allegations; ensuring referrals to the relevant authorities happen without delay; ensuring this policy is reviewed every year or earlier if necessary.
• implementing this policy throughout the organisation
• ensuring MAKE Southwest workforce members receive and complete safeguardin

reporting serious safeguarding incidents to the trustees. providing an annual report for the trustees on MAKE Southwest safeguarding activity, issues, risks and developments required. The DSO is: Laura Wasley, [email protected] In the absence of the DSO, the deputy to the DSO is lan Wilkins: [email protected]

"What MAKE does
MAKE Southwest is a registered charity with employees, Maker-Members and volunteers.
It also has an established board of trustees.
It provides a craft centre with galleries, shop and education spaces as well as providing services online and in other locations.
In part, its purpose is to enable local craftspeople (its Maker Members) to showcase and sell their work.
However, it also offers members of the public, including both adults and children, the opportunity to visit the Centre in order to enjoy the facilities and, if they wish, to take part in organised activities within the education space, facilitated by the Charity's own employees or by its Maker Members. Maker Members are paid by MAKE on a freelance basis.
They are drawn from the craftspeople who constitute MAKE Southwest's own Maker Membership and have been approved by MAKE Southwest to work with children and/or adults. MAKE Southwest also delivers an outreach programme to schools across Devon which, again, involves employees and Maker Members artists running workshops and activities in partner schools.

Purpose
The purpose of this policy and associated procedures is to provide clarity to all MAKE
Southwest workforce, including employees, volunteers, trustees and Maker Members, on how they should engage with children and adults at risk when working for, on behalf of, or in partnership with MAKE Southwest.
It is also to help us make sure that our workforce is protected. It is intended to help us to have a common understanding of safeguarding issues, develop good practice across the diverse and complex areas in which we operate and thereby increase accountability.
This policy constitutes MAKE Southwest's policy and is underpinned by law and guidance
(see Appendix 1)

Application This policy is mandatory for all MAKE Southwest workforce members.
For the purposes of this policy, 'MAKE Southwest workforce' is anyone who works for or on behalf of MAKE Southwest, either in a paid or unpaid capacity.
This therefore includes directly employed employees, volunteers, trustees, associates and contractors. (Where there is a difference to this because of employment status the policy will make this clear.)"

"2. Safeguarding Procedures for concerns about a child or adult at risk
2.1
2.2
2.3
Introduction
Due to the direct contact that MAKE Southwest has with children and, potentially, adults at risk, via its outreach and education programmes, it is possible that MAKE Southwest workforce may encounter situations where they become concerned that a child or adult may be at risk of abuse or neglect. Hence the need to clarify what should happen if any member of the MAKE Southwest workforce or those working on our behalf identify possible child or adult protection concerns. It is not the role of MAKE Southwest to investigate any concerns or to know if actual harm has occurred. Rather it is our responsibility to share any concerns with the DSO who will then determine if the concern requires reporting to the statutory authorities.
The Four R's These procedure follows four R's as follows:
• Recognise that a child or adult is being harmed or is at risk of harm
Respond appropriately to someone who is telling you what is happening to them
Refer the concerns to the DSO
Record the concerns and all other follow up actions"

Appendix 1: Underpinning law and statutory guidance for MAKE
Southwest's safeguarding policy
UN Convention on the Rights of the Child
1991
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012
Data Protection Act 2018 and the GDPR
2018
a guard Chit 2018) Working Together lo
Children Act 1989 and 2004
Counter Terrorism and Security Act 2015
Communications Act 2003
Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003
Protection of Children Act 1978

Charity Commission Safeguarding Guidance

Sexual Offences Act 2003
Serious Crime Act 2015
Modern Slavery 2015
Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006
Voyeurism (Offences Act) Act 2019
Police Act 1997
The Care Act 2014
Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims
Amendment) Act 201
The Equality Act 2010
ental Capacity Act 200
The Human Rights Act 1998
The Data Protection Act 1998

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/safeguarding-duties-for-charity-trustees

Safeguarding and protecting people for charities and trustees
English | Cymraeg
What to do to protect people who come into contact with your charity through its work from abuse or mistreatment.
Trustees are expected to report safeguarding matters to the relevant agencies (such as the police, social services or Ofsted) and for putting matters right if things go wrong.
Types of risks and harm
Be aware of the wide range of risks and harms that exist, such as the following:

Types of risks and harm
Be aware of the wide range of risks and harms that exist, such as the following:

• discrimination on any of the grounds in the Equality Act 2010

Wow thanks @EyesOpening !

I haven't C&Ped everything but basically their safeguarding policy states it is underpinned by law and guidance, as per appendix 1, which includes the Charity Commission Safeguarding Guidance, which I've linked, which says they have to take into account the EqA2010, which is what the Supreme Court ruling was about.

Well done for speaking up, OP!

The attitude of the women in the office was bad, not just about their lack of concern about women's legal entitlement to single sex toilets, but also their glib handing over of the accessible toilet to ..
oh this is a new one! Up to now accessible toilets have been offered as a consolation prize for disgruntled transwomen, but now they are offered to women who don't want to use mixed sex toilets!

The fact that a number of MAKE employees stated to you twice that able-bodied people should use the accessible toilets is a cause for complaint in itself.
It is outrageous that facilities that disabled people had to campaign for for decades, and which are a necessity not a preference for disabled people who can't use standard toilets, are being made available by able-bodied people to other able-bodied people.

It's my guess that the office staff have never really examined the issue - they will have had 15 years or so of TWAW rammed down their throats, so think it's the law. What it needs is for Senior management to take the lead and say that no, this was not the law, and we will enforce the law.

If they are saying that the "Supreme Court ruling regarding the law on single sex provision was unworkable, they are saying one or all of

• we can't tell the difference between men and women
• we can tell the difference but don't want to say no to the men
• we can't tell the difference between men who claim to be women and men who don't claim to be women
• we don't have the resources to challenge the men
• we will let all men in because if we let some in we have no basis for refusing others

Do they realise that they are saying the women's toilets are actually mixed sex and they can't or won't do anything about it? What happened 10 years ago? Was it unworkable then to say that men had to use the men's? Obviously not.

I was just looking at the latest on the "It will never happen thread." I guess if this man wanted to use their women's toilets, all of the above would apply (except obviously #1, though who knows, maybe they'd claim he looked like a woman).

https://komonews.com/news/nation-world/witness-testifies-in-hearing-for-sex-offender-accused-in-arlington-school-exposure-case-richard-cox-washington-liberty-high-school-wakefield-barcroft-sports-and-fitness-center

Coming back to this thread, as I had emailed the CEO - long email around the current toilet signage not being accurate and therefore the facilities were not inclusive as they are effectively mixed sex.
got a response today- v brief, thanks for your feedback on our signage, it will be included in future discussions.

what now??

Write back and ask if they are going to follow the law?

What discussions are they referring to?
when will they happen?
Who will be involved?
Can you be provided with an update when they happen?

The whole ‘just use the accessible toilet!’ enrages me as well. Those toilets are for people with accessibility needs, disabled people fought hard to get them and nobody else should be using them. But gender woo trumps all protected characteristics it seems.
Please keep us updated OP!

You should use the loo of your biological sex. The accessible loo csn be used by anyone else. Why should biological- a majority group have to use the accessible toilet. ?

I would reply and thank them for their response. I would inform them that they should not delay in their discussions and should act upon their conclusions urgently. Any delay could result in them being sued or have the EHRC, who have recently said that they've written to several organisations about their failure to follow the law, involved. Ask them to keep you updated and say that if you haven't heard from them with any action taken, in say a month, you'll be writing back to them.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/about-us/who-we-are

Might also be an idea to ask them whether they have notified their insurers that they are currently breaking the law and whether their trustees would be personally liable for any losses incurred.

All good points, thank you.
sigh
i really don’t want to go into battle on this
stocks up on biscuits