Gay men and surrogacy - the new “be kind”?

[Tootingbec]

Just seen a LinkedIn post from a gay man who is writing a book about the surrogacy “journey” he and his husband went through. Cue gushing comments about how amazing this is…..

It has really upset me. The sheer fucking privilege of gay men to buy babies and then be lauded and praised for it like they were super heroes. And untouchable to criticism due to blinkered “be kind” beliefs about the poor gay men who just want a family like heterosexual men.

Where do people think these babies come from? Do you think people delude themselves that all these gay men just have kind, altruistic female friends who happily have a baby for them? As opposed to exploiting vulnerable and desperate women in India, Mexico and the like.

I feel so angry - women are just fucked over and abused time and time again by men and it is all dressed up as progressive when it is the exact opposite.

When I was a younger women I loved having gay men in my social circle. They seemed like “nicer” more lovely men than most straight men. Now I realise that underneath it all they just the same sexist, privileged tossers as many straight men are. They want a baby? No problem - buy one! They want to invade women’s spaces? No problem - just reinvent yourself as “the most vulnerable in society”!

It’s like the scales have fallen from my eyes.

No one has a 'right' to rent anything from another person so save the hyperbole. If a person offers it to be rented that's different.

Well is it? If the power dynamic is clearly not equal?

Or if the long term implications are not easy to fully grasp if you haven't been through it before?

We as a society can say "no" to that. It's illegal in plenty of countries like Italy and Germany.

Society can say no to anything it likes. It can say no to renting a beach house or a car too if it wants to. What's your point?

Funny how Tom suddenly gets a blinding light of clarity over what a woman is when he decides he wants to use one to get himself a baby.

Why do you insist the power dynamic is always unequal? You're putting a slant on it that simply isn't there. People by and large don't assume they 'have a right' to any persons body they point their finger at.

Yes, some people are exploited. Over lots of different things for lots of different reasons. But arguing that that is ALWAYS the case when some people make valid autonomous decisions is ludicrous and just simply not true.

You want to speak for other people and demonise every situation because you know better than them what they do with their own bodies? Go ahead. Just know it's not grounded in reality.

Because I believe that in many cases it will be unequal. In other cases, full comprehension of what is being agreed to will be difficult to maintain.

I wonder how many 'altruistic' surrogacies do the parties involve sit down and say 'what happens if you die or are disabled by carrying/birthing this child?' - how is this compensated for?

What about your own children?'

Or 'What happens if you have to have a hysterectomy and cannot have further children/children of your own'? Or 'what happens if your mental health is much more significantly affected than you believe it will be now'?

I would be surprised if these conversations are tabled with the depth and attention that is needed. Or any measures put in place.

And I don't know how anyone can be happy with another person taking these risks for them. Even if the risk is smalll, the outcomes could be catastrophic.

I believe my position is far more grounded in reality than a facile 'isn't it a lovely thing to do'. It's certainly not a lovely thing to facilitate someone doing for you.

And why is everything couched in Rte language of 'demonisation'? Pointing out the significant costs, moral importations and risks is not demonising. It is bringing important context to the table which some would like to airbrush out.

Autonomy is not the same as agency.

Well you were the one that said it's different if people choose to rent themselves out. I'm saying no, it's not, as we can make it illegal. We stop all sorts of things that people would like to do. Like selling organs. Speeding. Not wearing a seat belt. Why not renting out your womb? Or at least not telling the child who you are.

I think that's the point: you don't know. You have zero idea what conversations are or aren't had. You have no idea why a woman might put themselves forward to be a surrogate. You're assuming difficult conversations don't happen or can never be thorough enough because it supports your narrative but you simply don't know.

I'm not denying that there will be situations that are unequal, by the way. And you're probably right that many will go ahead without discussing everything single angle and every single outcome and the exact consequences of each - that probably is true. But assigning all of them unequal and ill-thought through is not reasonable.

And I don't know how anyone can be happy with another person taking these risks for them. Even if the risk is smalll, the outcomes could be catastrophic.

Well in that case no man should feel happy impregnating a woman ever. Even their wife. After all, the risks could be catastrophic.

I believe my position is far more grounded in reality than a facile 'isn't it a lovely thing to do'.

I don't think it's a 'lovely thing to do'. I haven't said that at all. I'm just countering the lazy narrative that it's always oppressive, that it's always about men taking ownership of women's bodies and it's always a power issue between the rich west and poor developing countries.

Why do you insist the power dynamic is always unequal? You're putting a slant on it that simply isn't there.

I've never seen or heard of a surrogacy case where a wealthy celebrity or even just well off woman is offering herself up as a surrogate for a not so wealthy stranger. Money gives power in this situation (like so many others) and makes it unequal in my view.

We could make it illegal, but it's not. Come back to me when that changes and you have a point.

This is what campaigning looks like.

We could make it illegal and some countries have. That is why it’s an interesting and relevant conversation to have, which is exactly what posters are doing here. Why is it illegal in some (Western European) countries and not others? What evidence did those countries consider when they made it illegal? You don’t think it’s a conversation worth having?

The law commission had a consultation about making surrogacy easier. They did not want to hear from anyone who wanted it to be illegal, they only wanted to know how to 'improve' it (for purchasers).

https://lawcom.gov.uk/project/surrogacy/

This is top down, this is not the government responding to a public wanting surrogacy to be easier for purchasers and for birth mothers to have less rights. They'd already decided surrogacy is a good idea without asking the public.

Here are a couple of answers to the question ‘why is surrogacy illegal in ?’

I personally find it interesting and worthy of discussion. (Screenshots will take a while to show up, I imagine)

I don't know. But I could hazard a very good guess.

I was just wondering, on the back of my post if I could be supportive of altruistic surrogacy if these conversations were required, mediated by an outsider and sufficient plans put in place (insurance, wills, guardianship) before the process.

And I almost got there. But, what gives me pause is ...

a) either the surrogate has never been pregnant/carried to term before, in which case she has no idea what she's consenting to

Or

b) she already has children, so understands what she's letting herself in for, in which case, there are her own children to think of if anything happens to her.

So I didn't get there in the end.

Well in that case no man should feel happy impregnating a woman ever. Even their wife. After all, the risks could be catastrophic

But here they're taking risks on behalf of themselves, for their own gain. That is a totally different situation to getting some other poor woman to take those risks on your behalf.

As for the power dynamic, I just fail to see how it could be any other way. For commercial surrogacy, it is always poor women doing this for rich women.

For altruistic surrogacy, I think the combined impact of - doesn't understand the true impact on her/feels family pressure/hasn't thought through the risks properly - is overwhelming.

And even if we find a woman who is unaffected by all this, she will have children of her own (to know what pregnancy/giving birth entails) and I do t think taking risk with her life and health is fair on those children, even if she 'consents'

Money gives power - yes of course that's true in almost any situation you care to mention. The alternative is communism. People who want money make different choices than those who don't - such is the way of the world but it doesn't automatically equal exploitation.

"You simply don't know..."

"You have no idea why a woman might put themselves forward"

Er, why are we pretending that this isn't a decades old well researched and evidence based area of ethical debate?! Or do all the voices of surrogate women who have shared their lived experience not count?!

I also love how you're absolutely downplaying how surragacy has become another rung of modern slavery. Just like sex workers, the majority of surrogates across the world aren't some 'middle class feminist hero' exercising their bodily autonomy as you're trying so hard to claim. They're women from very disadvantaged backgrounds, preyed upon and exploited, then discarded when they're no longer a productive incubator. I don't give a flying f*ck if there's a handful of surrogates who feel they haven't been exploited. Because the reality is MOST ARE.

Even if laws closed loopholes that allow surrogacy from other countries that allow such obvious exploitation, is this any better?! :

https://futurism.com/venture-capital-surrogate-mother?fbclid=IwY2xjawMpOMhleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHjpOrbFCVRIcDxUQi5nU60YG-b8ilq0uQN5S6JHQqWVid_XQ8P1AJ1WUhSqV_aem_JftLnnSYW3m_tyXj390QaA

Why let a bit of evidence get in the way of the demands of some rich people?

It's a conspiracy!

I don’t feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for the innocent babied who are victims of human trafficking. Why is ok to sell a newborn but not say… a five year old or a 10 year old?

Spoken like the true petite bourgeois 🤣