NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #53

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025

Where can we find what Michael Foran has most recently said?
Googling brings up old links for me and things have moved on since February or August.

I'd like to understand the technicalities of the case and think I'm following but is this correct:
Is it the act of Upton ignoring SP obvious discomfort with him being a man in the women's CR and remaining in the CR that is deemed to be sexual harassment?

If Sandie wins, then the court will have agreed men are breaking the law if they sexually harass women by using (or remaining in) their spaces?

Google Micheal Foran sub stack but you have to pay for it

That is to be decided by the tribunal so nobody can answer that definitively.

Naomi Cunningham has published her submissions which can be found on tribunal tweets substack which will help.

You can read Naomi's submissions by clicking on the link on the first page of this thread.

Thanks, I've just looked at the submissions and statement. As I read it, if the case doesn't show sexual harassment then alternatively the court is asked to consider if direct or indirect discrimination has taken place. I haven't been able to keep up with the full thred so appreciate I'm following from behind probably asking obvious questions.

I have been reading the news reports and Twitter and it's clear the issue is Upton (a man) using female CR and Fife supporting this rather than admitting they were wrong.

I agree and think the vast majority of sensible and logical people agree too (you see it in the comments sections of the news about this all the time). Unfortunately the 'people with the power' seem to have completely lost sight of this, as demonstrated by several witnesses in this tribunal.

Every single witness knows really whether they are male or female but for goodness knows what reason so many seem willing to sacrifice their credibility and careers to pretend otherwise.

I don't yet have faith that sense and logic will win out. Even after the SC outcome.

I’ve got 3 gift links for a Foran substack trial. You’d need to dm me your email address

In a bra....for some reason that just sets my hair on fire.

Women who don’t need to wear a bra ( because they have very small or no breasts ) very rarely do so under scrubs / pyjamas or other loose clothing . they might wear a soft crop top or similar , especially if they are post surgery to hide the scars .

This is because bras are uncomfortable. They may wear them when they are dressed up / want to look “ sexy “ or glamorous, but that’s not on the women's CR at work.

This I suggest is why it seems odd to us that a person who has no breasts might choose to wear a bra to work under scrubs . It’s a situation where women would choose to be comfortable and see no place for looking “sexy”.

The only people who would see your underwear are collleagues that you change in front of. I don’t know any adult women who want to look sexy to other women in a work changing room . You might care if you are 16 but not if you are an adult who works 12 hour shifts.

This I suggest is why it seems odd to us that a person who has no breasts might choose to wear a bra to work under scrubs .

Quite, the whole thing screamed 'pervert' to me.

1VY I’d say it’s 100% performative. Most women who wear scrubs wear a T-shirt or vest underneath, regardless of whether we wear a bra. Sweaty, stiff scrub material isn’t nice next to skin.

This I suggest is why it seems odd to us that a person who has no breasts might choose to wear a bra to work under scrubs . It’s a situation where women would choose to be comfortable and see no place for looking “sexy”.

Because it's a real turn on to be wearing women's clothing "living as a woman", innit.

I live in a large "diverse" borough in South London. For personal reasons (oh ok my 94 year old mother suddenly appearing on their radar for a mental capacity assessment, think GP and I could save them the trouble) I googled the latest on adult social care services. Latest councillor minutes focus mainly on "LGBTQ etc" with the suggestion that there should be separate care home provision (so no cisgender/heterosexual?) And statements from local Pride person re "dollops of homophobia and transphobia". I don't think it would even compute with these people that some prominent and vocal lesbians are at the forefront of the gender critical debate. But don't want to detract from creepy bra discussion.

I've got 1 left, so DM me, if you don't get one of Knotty's

I think it was Akua Reindorf from the EHRC who said that thansgender activists had to realise that other people had rights too. The Guardian wasn't very pleased with her. She wasn't happy with them when they twisted what she was saying either.

I was thinking about that while ironing and it occurred to me that the whole argument is about taking rights from women. Sport, shared spaces, even what we call ourselves. And if we won't give them what they want then we're the nasty ones. I know, I know, I'm late to the party, but I think it's an argument that needs to be made clearly to the outside world and will with the Darlington Nurses, because apparently to the NHS the rights of six women matter less than the rights of one man. And they're staff so I wonder what the ratio is when it comes to patients?

Gender ideology is a branch of men’s rights activism, just like incellism (?, incellery?) or old skool misogyny like Andrew Tate & co. Nothing more and absolutely nothing less.

The implications are significant. This is why so many transcels are having a full scale melt down over the whole case.

Ironing is a very reflective activity for me too, Easytoconfuse
I've come to the same conclusion - that the reason the trans juggernaut had an astonishingly swift and broad effect on societies was that it could run along the existing rails of the backlash against the achievements of the women's movement in the 70s and 80s.
The return of gender stereotyping was one example, that whole princess/glitter/butterfly thing for little girls who just a few years before would have been running around happily in dino tracksuits and Kicker boots.

A more efficient way to erase women's rights is to destroy the category 'women' altogether - if anybody can be a woman, the concept of 'women's rights' is meaningless.

So a movement of men claiming loudly that they are in fact women was a dream come true, and tacking them onto the existing LGB movement made them unassailably 'politically correct'.

Is there any other explanation for otherwise intelligent people claiming TWAW, fathers can give birth, drag artistes are social commentators, and women protecting women's rights are Nazi-adjacent? It seems to me that sexism is the only answer.

I agree but I also think the internet means you can meet other people who agree with you and then the alogorithms give you more of the same. Some are lovely like the telephone heritage people my DH hangs out with, or the people here or fellow quilters and birdwatchers. Others not so much. The difference is that I am not insisting that everyone quilts and watches birds or collects old phones.

An honourable mention of Tunnocks in this Scotland/ business article from the Times. With share token.
www.thetimes.com/article/3beb290c-31c3-40be-b8b8-f36290f8cee5?shareToken=1a19333f0295db982eca8402c3db1644

Speaking of Tunnocks, I am told that the Lidl not-Tunnocks-honest caramel biscuit bars sold in wrappers of the Tunnocks colours and almost the same design are just as good and £1.79 instead of £2.30 or so for the same amount of bar.

I don't eat them myself, but this is what I am told, and this is a Public Service Announcement.

Going back to the thread:

This morning I was at my GP practice for a routine blood-test and check-up with one of the nurses, and when she had to stop and take the scales to another nurse in another room and explained they have to share them, I peevishly remarked that the NHS is on its uppers and really can't afford to spend hundreds of thousands to stroke one man's ego, and she knew exactly what I was talking about and became really quite cross, for her, about "that man Upton". (She is usually a placid, calm sort of person.) I found this obscurely comforting; it's not as if we were even in Scotland, leave alone Fife, and yet she knew what had been and is going on.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25475820.nhs-fife-wont-reveal-legal-team-hourly-rate-sandie-peggie-tribunal/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwZnRzaAM3zdBleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHiihWkwAxaIuUtJq1jgjc-oDri7G0fgXseCO-WDSK-uRQXlqIAk4DFIUwZZX_aem_NXXDeR3xVIz1zbJ8_3EVGw#Echobox=1758127100