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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC Radio 4: Hijra: erasing homosexuality

71 replies

Pluvia · 03/09/2025 09:57

Radio 4 broadcast this programme yesterday:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct5tgm

I have listened to the whole programme. The Hijra, according to older academic sources and anthropological studies, are communities of Asian gay men (the majority) plus some other male social outsiders. They dress as women and, traditionally, have worked as entertainers, musicians and prostitutes. Islam has traditionally been unwelcoming towards homosexuals. They have always been marginalised. What we would call swishy, camp gay men and boys who have been disowned by their families find community and support among the Hijras.

They've now been reinvented as communities of transgender and intersex people, according tot he BBC. Nothing to do with being homosexual at all. This programme completely erases their homosexuality. Everything has been submerged by gender. The men are called 'she' throughout. No uninformed listener would have any idea that these are gay men living in a homophobic society where they can't be openly gay unless they disguise themselves as women.

This is homophobia in action and the BBC are broadcasting it without any kind of cultural or academic analysis.

Heart and Soul - The mosque for Bangladesh’s transgender women - BBC Sounds

A community giving intersex and transgender individuals in Bangladesh a place to worship

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct5tgm

OP posts:
Keenovay · 04/09/2025 17:17

Keenovay · 04/09/2025 11:36

When a baby is born in India, the hirjas will find out, then show up at your doorstep to bless the child. This involves negotiating a payment. If you don't pay enough, or shoo them away, they'll curse your baby or threaten to expose their genitals so most people pay up.

I realise they don't map perfectly onto the trans community here but I think there are similar tactics at play when TRAs act up. Those topless protests at the Scottish Parliament and Downing Street? Placate the hirjas...or else!

PS sorry, should say hijra not hirja!

Ihavetoask · 04/09/2025 17:27

There's actually a good episode of the Blacklist about it. Let me try and find the script.

[ Door opens ]
Red: Nasim. There you are. Please, come in. We have much to discuss, and time is a factor.
Nasim: What do you want?
Red: To offer my sympathies.
Nasim: I know who you are.
Red: And I know who you are, Nasim. What a beautiful name. It means “breeze” in Farsi. But you weren’t born Nasim. You were born Nasir– “the victorious.” How ironic. But a boy. A perfectly healthy boy.♤
Nasim: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Liz: Alice told us the story. We know you’re The Djinn.
Red: And this must be your father. The butcher. Tell me, Bahram, was it so horrific to discover that your 19-year-old son, your eldest son, was gay? So horrific that you forced him against his will to go under the knife, change his gender, to give you a daughter instead of your son, who is gay?♤
Bantam: [ Shakily ] Clerics accept– People can get trapped in the body of the wrong sex. The law says–
Nasim: I wasn’t trapped. I liked my body. I liked men.
Bahram: I wanted to protect you, Nasim. They could have killed you.

Red: For being gay. They’re so homophobic that being gay is a hideous crime, but chopping off a man’s penis isn’t? Honestly, is it just me, or is the human race, armed with religion, poisoned by prejudice, and absolutely frantic with hatred and fear, galloping pell-mell back to the dark ages? Who on earth is hurt by a little girl going to school or a child being gay?♤ Let’s be frank, Bahram. You didn’t change your son to protect him. You changed him because he disgusted you.
Bahram: [ Breathing shakily ] That’s not true.
Nasim: You violated my body without consent. You sliced out my identity and discarded it as waste. You cursed me to live the rest of my life as a second-class citizen, despite being a firstborn son.♤

ChristmaslightsuptilJanuary · 04/09/2025 17:28

I listened and although there was no mention of the Hijra being gay men, anyone with half a brain would assume that

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 21:29

Coffeelovr · 03/09/2025 11:58

That the concept of other genders is a long recognised notion in other cultures

I have written on this before. You are spouting bullshit. Name the word for third gender from hindu religious sources then, go on I dare you.

Male hindu gods have assumed half-female form in certain situations to defeat evil demons as a contingency. It is a bit like Macduff being born not of woman. Demons gained immense powers and could not be killed by man or woman, by day or night, indoors or outdoors. So our intrepid hindu hero gods killed the demons as an androgyne, at dusk on the threshold of a dwelling. There is no suggestion of gender dysphoria at all. Other gods like Shiva are depicted as half masculine and half feminine to symbolise the two fundamental divine powers, male and female, shiva-shakti . Shakti is also Shiva's wife Parvathi. The yoni-lingam icons (male and female reproductive organs) found in hindu temples symbolise the same concept. No third sex, or 'gender'.

The hijras, (a muslim term btw though there are other words in various hindu languages) are India's way of allowing homosexual men a limited and highly marginalised existence on the sidelines of society. They were disowned and disinherited by their families. They were physically isolated and could not live amongst local communities. These men worked as prostitutes and sooth sayers and like all dispossessed hindus, eventually found their own patron goddesses, festivals and religious rituals. People sometimes gave or sold babies born with ambiguous genitalia and effeminate boys to these hijra communities. Within these communities, men married each other (not all the men dressed as women) but none of this had mainstream religious sanction.

The "third sex" demarcation is a totally modern and recent innovation. People find it convenient to link it to hindu iconography or myths to reduce discrimination but it is a misreading of hinduism as such. You just have to read the manusmirti or look up hindu laws to know hindu attitudes towards homosexuality. And the OP is right, these communities were exclusively male homosexual communities.

Ihavetoask · 04/09/2025 21:33

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 21:29

I have written on this before. You are spouting bullshit. Name the word for third gender from hindu religious sources then, go on I dare you.

Male hindu gods have assumed half-female form in certain situations to defeat evil demons as a contingency. It is a bit like Macduff being born not of woman. Demons gained immense powers and could not be killed by man or woman, by day or night, indoors or outdoors. So our intrepid hindu hero gods killed the demons as an androgyne, at dusk on the threshold of a dwelling. There is no suggestion of gender dysphoria at all. Other gods like Shiva are depicted as half masculine and half feminine to symbolise the two fundamental divine powers, male and female, shiva-shakti . Shakti is also Shiva's wife Parvathi. The yoni-lingam icons (male and female reproductive organs) found in hindu temples symbolise the same concept. No third sex, or 'gender'.

The hijras, (a muslim term btw though there are other words in various hindu languages) are India's way of allowing homosexual men a limited and highly marginalised existence on the sidelines of society. They were disowned and disinherited by their families. They were physically isolated and could not live amongst local communities. These men worked as prostitutes and sooth sayers and like all dispossessed hindus, eventually found their own patron goddesses, festivals and religious rituals. People sometimes gave or sold babies born with ambiguous genitalia and effeminate boys to these hijra communities. Within these communities, men married each other (not all the men dressed as women) but none of this had mainstream religious sanction.

The "third sex" demarcation is a totally modern and recent innovation. People find it convenient to link it to hindu iconography or myths to reduce discrimination but it is a misreading of hinduism as such. You just have to read the manusmirti or look up hindu laws to know hindu attitudes towards homosexuality. And the OP is right, these communities were exclusively male homosexual communities.

I've just named one. The existence of this doesn't mean anything. Admitting facts isn't a problem. Hinduism is a religion, not a culture.

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 21:41

The prejudice and bigotry that many of these ancient traditions have had to face has not primarily come from their own ethnic cultures, but the overlaying of dominant and colonialist societies with conflicting mores. I do not see these ancient traditions as being "reinvented". More of a different form of colonialism in that the imperatives of (in this case) predominantly the UK (since most posters are from the UK) being superimposed on other peoples to further our own agendas.

Third rate bullshit that some westernised indian lefties who ironically have immense distaste for their indigenous religions say to take down colonialism. Hindu nationalists in a similar vein blame european colonialism for the caste system despite genetic evidence of endogamy.

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 21:53

JellySaurus · 04/09/2025 16:54

As I understand it, Hijra have always been accepted as existing, but never as full members of society. A necessary evil, like Dalits. Note that I am not claiming that either group of people are evil, more that this is another aspect to the caste system.

Hijra demands with violence are a result of the way that they are despised and looked down upon, and denied basic rights, even more so than the people who have been at the bottom of the caste system for generations.

Trans demands with violence are the result of not getting what they want, which is more rights than everybody else, despite already having the same rights as everybody else.

The things they do have in common are male biology and masculine socialisation.

They share a similar fate with other marginalised groups who are hated. There are south indian nomadic groups, basically tribal and hence outside the caste system, which I often saw depicted in Indian films as a child. They are called nari-kuravars, Vaidus etc and basically explained to me as indian gypsies. They were treated pretty much as gypsies in medieval europe were and the women are considered beautiful but dangerous. They were often accused of stealing babies, as are the hijras.

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 22:03

flopsyuk · 04/09/2025 11:29

I was attacked by a group of what i was told were Hijra in Delhi in the 1990s. They surrounded me on a public street and i was mauled. They groped me and pulled my hair.

My impression was that they were a group of men dressed as woman. No idea how representative this was of Hijra. They were masculine and strong. They didn't move or speak like Indian women.

When I reported this to the police I was told that these attacks on women were common at that time.

Yes, only those who have been to India will know how masculine these hijras are. They will shout and crack ribald jokes (after gatecrashing weddings in the hope of being paid to go away) and are not coy delicate beings. Absolutely no one can ever mistake them for women, not even in the dark or with a bag over their heads.

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 22:16

I've just named one. The existence of this doesn't mean anything.

Where? What? Hijra cannot be it. It is a muslim term. The hindu religion is much older and is very literate religion with dozens of sacred texts - find me just one term from these texts.

Hinduism is a religion, not a culture.

Got that from wiki too? Hilarious that you should say that of hinduism of all religious traditions.

TempestTost · 04/09/2025 22:17

Ihavetoask · 04/09/2025 06:12

But these groups have existed for thousands of years. Men, likely gay men, who identify as a third gender. Indigenous Americans have the concept of being two spirit which isnt as male focused.

Indigenous Americans are not one group and have widely varied views on these and other topics.

I am not sure why you think it matters that these cultures have had these sub-groups for thousands of years. That doesn't change anything about what they represent from an anthropological POV.

What they represent is a culture with inflexible ideas about how men and women behave and live, what kinds of work they do, who they have sex with, and so on.

Third genders are an attempt to deal with the fact that sometimes, that level of inflexibility creates problems. Gay in a culture where men can't be attracted to men? Have a third gender. Only women to lead the family in a culture that doesn't allow female leadership? Third gender. Not enough women to do the women's work in a culture with strict ideas about sex division of tasks? Take your worst young hunter and make him a third gender.

What difference does it make if its been going on 1000 years, that doesn't mean it's not about maintaining very strict sex based behaviours.

Ihavetoask · 04/09/2025 22:22

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 22:16

I've just named one. The existence of this doesn't mean anything.

Where? What? Hijra cannot be it. It is a muslim term. The hindu religion is much older and is very literate religion with dozens of sacred texts - find me just one term from these texts.

Hinduism is a religion, not a culture.

Got that from wiki too? Hilarious that you should say that of hinduism of all religious traditions.

Hindus have different cultures depending on various other aspects of their identity.

Ihavetoask · 04/09/2025 22:23

TempestTost · 04/09/2025 22:17

Indigenous Americans are not one group and have widely varied views on these and other topics.

I am not sure why you think it matters that these cultures have had these sub-groups for thousands of years. That doesn't change anything about what they represent from an anthropological POV.

What they represent is a culture with inflexible ideas about how men and women behave and live, what kinds of work they do, who they have sex with, and so on.

Third genders are an attempt to deal with the fact that sometimes, that level of inflexibility creates problems. Gay in a culture where men can't be attracted to men? Have a third gender. Only women to lead the family in a culture that doesn't allow female leadership? Third gender. Not enough women to do the women's work in a culture with strict ideas about sex division of tasks? Take your worst young hunter and make him a third gender.

What difference does it make if its been going on 1000 years, that doesn't mean it's not about maintaining very strict sex based behaviours.

Ive said various times that the existence of these concepts in other cultures doesn't change much, but it is factual that they have existed for a long time.

Slightyamusedandsilly · 04/09/2025 22:31

Coffeelovr · 03/09/2025 11:07

From Wikipedia: "Hijra is officially recognised as a third gender throughout countries in the Indian subcontinent"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)

Yup. I've owned a book about them since the 1980s. They were always seen as a 3rd gender. Not gay.

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 22:42

Ihavetoask · 04/09/2025 22:22

Hindus have different cultures depending on various other aspects of their identity.

Copping out on the name of those ancient third genders from hinduism?
There is one from my language, listed in wikipedia, Aravani, which is so ancient that it was coined in the 19th century.

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 22:43

Yup. I've owned a book about them since the 1980s. They were always seen as a 3rd gender. Not gay.

How many of them are heterosexual then?

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/09/2025 23:11

All the way back to the 1980s? Gosh, you've got me convinced - that's practically prehistory.

But yet again I ask - even if these are old ideas in some cultures, so what? Old homophobia is still homophobia. Old misogyny is still misogyny. Whether it began in 1980, 1880 or 1580.

Ihavetoask · 04/09/2025 23:17

miraxxx · 04/09/2025 22:42

Copping out on the name of those ancient third genders from hinduism?
There is one from my language, listed in wikipedia, Aravani, which is so ancient that it was coined in the 19th century.

I didn't speak about Hinduism but a rudimentary Internet search says:

Tritiya-Prakriti refers to the Hindu concept of a "third sex" or a "third nature," a category encompassing individuals who are homosexual, transgender, or intersex. The term comes from a Sanskrit tradition and is explored in the book Tritiya-Prakriti: People of the Third Sex by Amara Das Wilhelm, which examines historical Hindu acceptance and social incorporation of these groups before the imposition of foreign, colonial-era views.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7539026/

This also comes up.

Transsexualism in Hindu Mythology - PMC

In spite of India showing progress in various medical, economic and social fronts, the care of the transgender individual is still encumbered by the various biases and taboos that people hold. But, this was not true in the antiquity. Hindu mythology .....

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7539026/

Miriabelle · 04/09/2025 23:57

Ihavetoask · 04/09/2025 06:12

But these groups have existed for thousands of years. Men, likely gay men, who identify as a third gender. Indigenous Americans have the concept of being two spirit which isnt as male focused.

“Identifying as a third gender” is in itself an idea from the last two decades. In the 90s and all of previous history, nobody thought hijra were a “third gender” (least of all in their own culture), because that wasn’t an available cultural idea. They were understood as male prostitutes of the lower castes, whose customers were other men, and who lived lives in marginalised communities, and dressed as women to signal their social status and work (both as gay men, but also as a form of entertainment — they made a living by dancing/begging/extorting money to avoid curses, as well as prostitution).

This often involved the idea of what used to be called hermaphroditism, partly because of its links to the idea of the divine feminine (and hijra were primarily of a Hindu cultural context where caste and religion are inextricably linked to the idea of the hijra), and partly because some hijra were disabled or intersex. It was also an escape from marriage and sometimes even less palatable social ostracism for men of the lowest castes (hijra communities were considered outside the lowest castes, who were themselves marginalised — but they had a social function and way of making money to survive). There was a significant overlap between disability, especially disorders of sexual development, caste status, and sexuality. This might have been socially legitimated partly by religious beliefs about the feminine, and ideas about men who were also spiritually “women” because they had sex with men; but that’s not remotely the same as the idea of “gender”.

The idea of a “third gender”, in the sense that Anglophones think of it today, is something completely different. Confusing the two is like seeing pantomime dames in early twentieth century music hall and thinking that’s evidence of a “third gender”. Or saying that camp gay men are “feminine”, therefore they are a “third gender”.

Neither was “two spirit” understood as a “third gender” before gender ideology. These were primarily ways of people living same-sex attracted lives in social and religious systems very alien to us. They were not “identifies” or “genders” in the sense that gender ideology (primarily of the last couple of decades) thinks of “identities” at all. These Western postwar idea of “Identity” as a concept is profoundly alien to most of our historical forebears, and large parts of the rest of the world, especially those with strong religious cultures.

Thinking that other cultures can be understood in very Western, modern terms like “identifying” and “gender” is a deeply colonising manoeuvre in itself. Gender ideology is profoundly Orientalist, always trying to make other cultures into some kind of mirror for ideas of “gender” that have only popped up very recently, and make little sense outside a Western linguistic, cultural and political framework.

Slightyamusedandsilly · 05/09/2025 06:00

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/09/2025 23:11

All the way back to the 1980s? Gosh, you've got me convinced - that's practically prehistory.

But yet again I ask - even if these are old ideas in some cultures, so what? Old homophobia is still homophobia. Old misogyny is still misogyny. Whether it began in 1980, 1880 or 1580.

Exactly. Check your privilege.

Ihavetoask · 05/09/2025 08:04

Miriabelle · 04/09/2025 23:57

“Identifying as a third gender” is in itself an idea from the last two decades. In the 90s and all of previous history, nobody thought hijra were a “third gender” (least of all in their own culture), because that wasn’t an available cultural idea. They were understood as male prostitutes of the lower castes, whose customers were other men, and who lived lives in marginalised communities, and dressed as women to signal their social status and work (both as gay men, but also as a form of entertainment — they made a living by dancing/begging/extorting money to avoid curses, as well as prostitution).

This often involved the idea of what used to be called hermaphroditism, partly because of its links to the idea of the divine feminine (and hijra were primarily of a Hindu cultural context where caste and religion are inextricably linked to the idea of the hijra), and partly because some hijra were disabled or intersex. It was also an escape from marriage and sometimes even less palatable social ostracism for men of the lowest castes (hijra communities were considered outside the lowest castes, who were themselves marginalised — but they had a social function and way of making money to survive). There was a significant overlap between disability, especially disorders of sexual development, caste status, and sexuality. This might have been socially legitimated partly by religious beliefs about the feminine, and ideas about men who were also spiritually “women” because they had sex with men; but that’s not remotely the same as the idea of “gender”.

The idea of a “third gender”, in the sense that Anglophones think of it today, is something completely different. Confusing the two is like seeing pantomime dames in early twentieth century music hall and thinking that’s evidence of a “third gender”. Or saying that camp gay men are “feminine”, therefore they are a “third gender”.

Neither was “two spirit” understood as a “third gender” before gender ideology. These were primarily ways of people living same-sex attracted lives in social and religious systems very alien to us. They were not “identifies” or “genders” in the sense that gender ideology (primarily of the last couple of decades) thinks of “identities” at all. These Western postwar idea of “Identity” as a concept is profoundly alien to most of our historical forebears, and large parts of the rest of the world, especially those with strong religious cultures.

Thinking that other cultures can be understood in very Western, modern terms like “identifying” and “gender” is a deeply colonising manoeuvre in itself. Gender ideology is profoundly Orientalist, always trying to make other cultures into some kind of mirror for ideas of “gender” that have only popped up very recently, and make little sense outside a Western linguistic, cultural and political framework.

I dont think thats true about 2 spirit.

Miriabelle · 05/09/2025 21:27

Ihavetoask · 05/09/2025 08:04

I dont think thats true about 2 spirit.

The whole idea of and term “two spirit” was invented in the early 1990s to reflect Anglophone queer theory of the period.

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