BBC Radio 4: Hijra: erasing homosexuality

[Pluvia]

Radio 4 broadcast this programme yesterday:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct5tgm

I have listened to the whole programme. The Hijra, according to older academic sources and anthropological studies, are communities of Asian gay men (the majority) plus some other male social outsiders. They dress as women and, traditionally, have worked as entertainers, musicians and prostitutes. Islam has traditionally been unwelcoming towards homosexuals. They have always been marginalised. What we would call swishy, camp gay men and boys who have been disowned by their families find community and support among the Hijras.

They've now been reinvented as communities of transgender and intersex people, according tot he BBC. Nothing to do with being homosexual at all. This programme completely erases their homosexuality. Everything has been submerged by gender. The men are called 'she' throughout. No uninformed listener would have any idea that these are gay men living in a homophobic society where they can't be openly gay unless they disguise themselves as women.

This is homophobia in action and the BBC are broadcasting it without any kind of cultural or academic analysis.

What about women who are sexually attached to women, is there also community of women being forced to pretend they're men in India and for centuries and centuries.

Not as far as I'm aware but there may be posters familiar with the history of lesbianism/ lesbian society in Asia who can supply further information.

The status of the vast majority of women in India and Bangladesh and Pakistan until recent years has been so low (barring a few women from a small privileged class) and marriage so mandatory that I suspect most Asian lesbians ended up marrying and enduring a heterosexual relationship without ever being acknowledged as lesbians. Since the 90s (I'd say) there has been the occasional Indian book or film that acknowledged same-sex attraction between women.

It may be worth reminding people that so many older lesbians here in the UK are women who did the expected thing and married, either because they were completely unaware there was such a thing as lesbianism, or because not marrying would have made them outcasts. Later in life, as divorce became easier and they no longer faced losing their children if they came out, they emerged as lesbians. I know it surprises some people that lesbians had their children taken away and placed with the father if they left the marriage for a woman, but this was the situation until 1989 — and I know older lesbians who had their children removed from happy homes.

I didn't say they are a third gender; I said they are recognised as a third gender legally. The whole notion of gender is metaphysical. Nonetheless, other cultures give it credence. If we accept that it has no basis in reality, then the concept can be accommodated as a means of description. I personally don't think that labels are helpful, but some seem to feel they are.
I personally agree with your comment about Western genderwangers, but the real harm comes when gender overrules sex, not from whether gender exists or not. Having said that, I don't believe that gender should be recognised in law in the UK as it is impossible to define.

I said they are recognised as a third gender legally.

Could you link to anything that confirms that there is a legal third gender in India? What sort of legal entity? Something official, not a post in social media or Wikipedia. Thanks.

If they are not male and not female, what are they? Why is it only men who are Hijras? Why would they need a third gender if all the Hijras are biological males? Just some of the questions passing through my brain.

Could you link to anything that confirms that there is a legal third gender in India? What sort of legal entity? Something official, not a post in social media or Wikipedia. Thanks.
Wikipedia has its own references. It's up to you whether you believe or not

If they are not male and not female, what are they?
Why is this question relevant? It's clear the Wiki article is referring to gender, not sex.

Why is it only men who are Hijras? Why would they need a third gender if all the Hijras are biological males? Just some of the questions passing through my brain.
I'm just pointing it out. Doesn't mean I support it. You'll have seen genderists claiming colonialism has tried to eradicate gender. I suppose there's an element of truth in that. Doesn't mean it's not wrong to do so though!

It seems to me the only reason other cultures give a third gender credence is because culturally they don't want to allow same sex attraction. As a culture we do so we don't need to force people into pretending they're something they not, and have no need for a third gender. Just because other culture's do doesn't mean we have to copy, if we were to follow the example of India, we'd force all the trans iding men to accept that they're a third gender (which they don't want to do because they want to be accepted as women). We'd also round them all up and make them live together somewhere remote, (I pick Brighton, not remote but it'll do).
Some how I don't think that would go down very well, so for the genderwangers to use this community as some sort of example is even more bat shit than thinking men can be women. 🤯

https://translaw.clpr.org.in/case-law/nalsa-third-gender-identity/

Perhaps there's a lawyer around somewhere who can give an idea of what that judgment actually means on the ground? It's not clear what rights (if any) it confers but it's disturbing if it dilutes women's rights even further. I must ask around and try and find out what's happening in the LGB community in Bangladesh — although as homosexuality is illegal I don't suppose there is much of an LGB community.

What we would call swishy, camp gay men and boys who have been disowned by their families ...

Speak for yourself. Personally I have never called anyone "swishy, camp gay men and boys", and I certainly won't be starting to use perjorative language of that type any time ever.

I haven't had time to listen to that particular article, but third gender or gender variant people are actually very commonly recognised in many old civilisations. The problem with attempting to comprehend these systems is that they are ancient (and often actually highly respected), but we have no common basis linguistically or culturally to understand them. Rendering an ancient tradition into modern day language and culture, and into English when there are often no words that have the same meaning, leads to misunderstanding and prejudice; and can often create a feedback loop from our own prejudices where we take what we think is happening out of any relevant context and place it in our own.

The same kind of misconceptions then arise where people who accepted and who were even respected become excluded because they are "out of their time and place". Try looking up "two spirit people", a modern and Euro-centric rendering of ancient traditions in the US First Nations, the Enarei, the Mahu, and many others.

The prejudice and bigotry that many of these ancient traditions have had to face has not primarily come from their own ethnic cultures, but the overlaying of dominant and colonialist societies with conflicting mores. I do not see these ancient traditions as being "reinvented". More of a different form of colonialism in that the imperatives of (in this case) predominantly the UK (since most posters are from the UK) being superimposed on other peoples to further our own agendas.

I haven't had time to listen to that particular article, but third gender or gender variant people are actually very commonly recognised in many old civilisations.

Yes, because those civilisations were/ are homophobic. No need for a third gender or whatever in Ancient Greece, where homosexuality was considered not just normal but the most noble of attractions.

You're not at all concerned that in the 21st century it's illegal to have homosexual sex in Bangladesh? Do you celebrate FGM, locking up menstruating women in sheds for a week each month or throwing widows on their husband's funeral pyre? All honourable ancient cultural traditions.

Give your head a shake. It's not progressive to support hatred of LGB people while glorifying cultural practices that stem from that hatred.

I knew it was a mistake to even think of introducing facts. Of course I am not supporting homosexuality being illegal. I have never supported hatred of LGB people - it wasn't me who described people as "swishy, camp gay men and boys". You are drawing ridiculous claims of things that I did not say to defend euro-centric bigotry.

And actually you really need to revisit Ancient Greek facts, instead of making them up.

You sit in your colonialist comfy seat and rewrite history yet again. It's what so many white people do.

Social "genders" that allow roles, clothes or behaviours that a culture usually restricts for one sex to be done by the people of the other sex exist in many cultures because they are a symptom of rigid gender roles and many cultures have rigid gender roles.

Despite what Neo-sexists assert, these traditional "genders" are not the result of openness and flexibility around gender but the exact opposite.

When you think about it it's obvious. How could it be anything else? These "third genders" can't actually change sex. All they do is adopt things that their culture restricts to the opposite sex. And that only works because their culture does restrict things by sex. In a culture that had no sex specific roles, behaviours or clothes, third genders would simply not be conceivable because there would be no other-sex social patterns to follow.

Furthermore, these cultural behaviours aren't open to all people of the opposite sex to dip in and out of but only to people who adopt a permanent "other" gender, again reinforcing that there are strict gender roles within that society. That some societies allow for more than two roles doesn't make them less strict about their gender rules.

Oh dear CRT as well, we just need someone from Queer Theory to chip in and we'll have the Omnicause. 🤪

But these groups have existed for thousands of years. Men, likely gay men, who identify as a third gender. Indigenous Americans have the concept of being two spirit which isnt as male focused.

. I have never supported hatred of LGB people - it wasn't me who described people as "swishy, camp gay men and boys.

Are you suggesting that that's a hateful description? How?

Hijra are an outcast group of men who are sexually non-conforming in a society that does not accept homosexuality. They are not trans and they are not a third gender (because gender is an idea, not a reality).

You sit in your colonialist comfy seat and rewrite history yet again. It's what so many white people do.

Indeed white people have been doing it for centuries. Which makes it an ancient tradition and therefore OK!

They are recognised as a third gender because rampant homophobia says that they are not manly enough to be men.

The men who have sex with them don't consider themselves gay either.

We're getting into this situation in the West, particularly with Transmaxxing, even a recent "trans woman" on here basically said that he didn't feel manly enough to be a man.

This.

Most societies that have a third gender are homophobic. All are incredibly rigid about sex roles (and in societies with rigid sex roles it's women who always get the shittiest end of the stick, followed by anyone gay or non-conforming).

Third gender may be ancient, but that doesn't make it good. That's a ridiculous argument - are we still treating disease by balancing humours, or choosing a national leader by battle? No, because old ways are often bad ways.

And I've stamped 2-spirit on my bingo card, so can now post this: https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/toward-an-end-to-appropriation-of-indigenous-two-spirit-people-in-trans-politics-the-relationship-between-third-gender-roles-and-patriarchy/

I was attacked by a group of what i was told were Hijra in Delhi in the 1990s. They surrounded me on a public street and i was mauled. They groped me and pulled my hair.

My impression was that they were a group of men dressed as woman. No idea how representative this was of Hijra. They were masculine and strong. They didn't move or speak like Indian women.

When I reported this to the police I was told that these attacks on women were common at that time.

Fantastic article.

“The continuous use of two-spirit people as a way to show that transgenderism has existed in all societies–and the incredible lack of knowledge of the basics of indigenous North American cultures shown by many trans people who casually refer to there being transgender people in American Indian societies–is appropriative behavior. It is taking the parts of a society that you think you like, without studying them much or looking at their origins, and deciding that the culture they’re from must really be deep and would really get you. It’s de-contextualizing and de-humanizing, and erases differences between American Indian cultures as well as the fundamental ways those cultures historically were different from anything we have on the planet today.”

What was someone saying about colonial attitudes?

When a baby is born in India, the hirjas will find out, then show up at your doorstep to bless the child. This involves negotiating a payment. If you don't pay enough, or shoo them away, they'll curse your baby or threaten to expose their genitals so most people pay up.

I realise they don't map perfectly onto the trans community here but I think there are similar tactics at play when TRAs act up. Those topless protests at the Scottish Parliament and Downing Street? Placate the hirjas...or else!

As I understand it, Hijra have always been accepted as existing, but never as full members of society. A necessary evil, like Dalits. Note that I am not claiming that either group of people are evil, more that this is another aspect to the caste system.

Hijra demands with violence are a result of the way that they are despised and looked down upon, and denied basic rights, even more so than the people who have been at the bottom of the caste system for generations.

Trans demands with violence are the result of not getting what they want, which is more rights than everybody else, despite already having the same rights as everybody else.

The things they do have in common are male biology and masculine socialisation.

My comment was about the fact that this concept has existed in some indigenous American cultures for a long time. It is true that the idea that there isn't just men and women has existed in some cultures for thousands of years. It isn't new or strictly Western.

It doesn't explain why Penelope from Highgate thinks she is a boy called Phillip and certainly doesn't justify her identifying as 2 spirit if that's what the article is about..

Maybe you could actually read the article? Then you'd find out whether it's about Phillipa from Highgate (clue - it's not).

And again, so what if it's existed a long time? All sorts of ideas are really old; that doesn't automatically mean they can't also be harmful, counterfactual, misogynistic, homophobic, ridiculous, or simply not useful in the modern world.

Human sacrifice existed for a long time in multiple cultures, for example, as did the idea that thunder was caused by gods and your sheep died because the old woman who owns the adjoining bit of land put a curse on them.

I read it. It actually is about people like Penelope identifying as 2 spirit without understanding anything about it. The issues they have raised about the identity, I've actually heard people who identify as 2 spirit in accordance with their culture talk about too and it has always been directly related to cultural appropriation. It's a good article. I am just saying that it is true that the idea of other genders isn't new or Western and I raised 2 spirit as an example of it. It's a fact that this concept exists in some cultures.