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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

American students are faking their wokeness, Justin Webb in the Times

32 replies

Igneococcus · 29/08/2025 14:13

I can't see this article by Justin Webb shared anywhere yet.

"A study released this month by the psychologists Forest Romm and Kevin Waldman suggests that a majority of American students are faking their wokeness. More than 1,400 students at two of the top universities in the US — Northwestern and Michigan — were asked whether they ever pretended to hold more progressive views than they truly endorsed to succeed professionally or socially: 88 per cent said they did. More than 80 per cent said they had submitted coursework that misrepresented their views in order to align with professors."
https://www.thetimes.com/article/a950479a-1878-4646-a552-0a650a47b1d6?shareToken=7c1c3266cd65f3258f9ed858ebe2cd02

Donald Trump didn’t start this quiet war on woke

Like his Republican Party takeover or social media use, the president’s attack on universities simply tapped into a growing mood

https://www.thetimes.com/article/a950479a-1878-4646-a552-0a650a47b1d6?shareToken=7c1c3266cd65f3258f9ed858ebe2cd02

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 29/08/2025 14:17

Unsurprising. I'm sure this is widespread. People are terrified of social censure and its possible consequences, especially younger people at the beginning of their careers.

SailingWonder · 29/08/2025 14:36

Yep.

PennyAnnLane · 29/08/2025 15:07

Well I’ve certainly handed in coursework arguing for a point of view that was the opposite of what I’d originally intended to say, and that I didn’t agree with, because it was easier to find sources to support that point of view and I’m lazy. You just do what you have to to get the grade!

lcakethereforeIam · 29/08/2025 16:24

The new MacCarthy-ites; land of the free, first amendment rights, being your authentic self, but only if you're in lockstep with people who will lie about a fundamental fact of who they are.

SerendipityJane · 29/08/2025 16:46

'twas ever thus.

The danger is that when people are allowed to express themselves freely (i.e. in a ballot box) the resulting disconnect becomes "proof" that the election was rigged.

Shedmistress · 29/08/2025 17:01

were asked whether they ever pretended to hold more progressive views than they truly endorsed to succeed professionally or socially: 88 per cent said they did. More than 80 per cent said they had submitted coursework that misrepresented their views in order to align with professors."

They absolutely had to in order to get in and pass the qualifications.

They had to submit EDI statements that needed to prove beyond reasonable doubt about how woke they were or they'd not get a place. Anyone submitting not declaritive enough wokery work would have been cancelled. If you don't know what was going on, look at Benjamin Boyce's Evergreen State University recordings about what went on when Bret Weinstein refused to stay away from campus and just go in and do his job.

IwantToRetire · 29/08/2025 17:18

There's already a thread about this report with quite a few comments.

ie source more interesting than what a journalist says about it.

IwantToRetire · 29/08/2025 17:27

Performative virtue-signaling has become a threat to higher ed

https://thehill.com/opinion/education/5446702-performative-virtue-signaling-has-become-a-threat-to-higher-ed/

Academiccoward · 29/08/2025 22:45

Decades ago I was an English undergrad in a UK university. I was never going to achieve a first, but I was a solid B/high C candidate. (and I did in fact go onto achieve a 2:1). In my third year I was devastated to be awarded a D for an essay about George Elliott. My tutor, a huge George Elliott fan, wrote in her comments that she felt I did not display much affection for the author. Well, no I hadn’t, because while accepting that George Elliott was a classic author there are some aspects of her writings that I didn’t (and still don’t ) like. However, I felt that my grade should not be dependent on whether or not I liked the author, it should rest on the quality of my arguments. So I appealed my grade and was subsequently remarked by a different academic and awarded a B.
The point of this story is … would I feel confident enough to do that in a university today . (Especially if the point of disagreement was not the qualities of a Victorian author, but, for example, my GC views). Sadly, I fear not. 😞 However, whilst this lack of bravery obviously reflects badly on me, I agree with the article that under the current climate it is probably true of many students. 😢

ArmchairXpert · 29/08/2025 22:51

Of course they are. Aren't we all? 😂

RandomlyGeneratedTriad · 30/08/2025 08:35

Was it the long sentences, @Academiccoward ?Grin

Reminds me of an editor of a magazine I once wrote a piece for who said I needed to change such-and-such because it implied that philosophy provided the parameters for answering a certain question and science had to follow.

To him, it was just axiomatic that science led and philosophy followed. He assumed I had simply mis-spoken.

Disclaimer: George Elliot is stonkingly brilliant. Despite the page-long sentences.

JamieCannister · 30/08/2025 09:07

Igneococcus · 29/08/2025 14:13

I can't see this article by Justin Webb shared anywhere yet.

"A study released this month by the psychologists Forest Romm and Kevin Waldman suggests that a majority of American students are faking their wokeness. More than 1,400 students at two of the top universities in the US — Northwestern and Michigan — were asked whether they ever pretended to hold more progressive views than they truly endorsed to succeed professionally or socially: 88 per cent said they did. More than 80 per cent said they had submitted coursework that misrepresented their views in order to align with professors."
https://www.thetimes.com/article/a950479a-1878-4646-a552-0a650a47b1d6?shareToken=7c1c3266cd65f3258f9ed858ebe2cd02

Let's hope this means what we think it means, not what it should mean if we take it literally.

If someone is pretending to be a homophobic, misogynistic and racist woke person who believe men can be women and that whites are inherently evil, but they are actually even less progressive than that, then presumably they are all literally hard right "women in the home, gay men back in the closet or in prison" bigots.

The reality, I hope, is that these students are actually normal centrists / centre right / centre left progressives who support women and LGB and racial equality, and they are pretending to be bigoted in order to appease insane woke bigots

Igneococcus · 30/08/2025 09:18

JamieCannister · 30/08/2025 09:07

Let's hope this means what we think it means, not what it should mean if we take it literally.

If someone is pretending to be a homophobic, misogynistic and racist woke person who believe men can be women and that whites are inherently evil, but they are actually even less progressive than that, then presumably they are all literally hard right "women in the home, gay men back in the closet or in prison" bigots.

The reality, I hope, is that these students are actually normal centrists / centre right / centre left progressives who support women and LGB and racial equality, and they are pretending to be bigoted in order to appease insane woke bigots

Looking at my dc (20 and 17) in Scotland, not the US, the latter is the case.

OP posts:
Howseitgoin · 30/08/2025 10:00

'It's not fair I have to lie about being a climate, vaccine, anti discrimination denier' to be taken seriously'…

nutmeg7 · 30/08/2025 10:05

lcakethereforeIam · 29/08/2025 16:54

In Spiked, although about British universities

https://archive.ph/wMOW2

https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/08/28/gender-critical-academics-must-put-their-heads-above-the-parapet/

Connie Shaw is so brave and so right. The Academics need to speak up. They have protections that students don't.

While I agree with her in principle, I don’t know what protections academics have that students don’t. Perhaps theoretical protection against getting sacked if you can put up with being bullied and ostracised every day.

I’m an academic, and my observation is that although Sussex eventually received a huge fine, Kathleen Stock was bullied and hounded (by students and staff) out of her job.

I do feel for gender-critical students, but the fear of ostracisation, spiteful behaviour and career blighting is real for academics as well as students. But the vehicle for official complaints go one way. Students can complain through easily accessible official channels; they are the “customers”.

Student complaints against academics are taken seriously (rightly so given we could mark down the work of someone we dislike) - but there is a huge chilling effect knowing that we have a problem with a potential mob mentality led by self-righteous students issuing complaints “Mr so and so isn’t “safe” to work with transgender students” or similar).

Our modules are “reviewed” anonymously by students. Most are used for the intended purpose of giving useful feedback, but some use this as an opportunity for anonymous personal abuse. We have no comeback or right or reply. We don’t know which student(s) are responsible. We have to use these as evidence of our teaching quality in our annual appraisals. I have seen male and female members of staff in tears over really nasty personal comments made in these module evaluation questionnaires.

So it is not as simple as this writer makes out, the power dynamic is not simply “lecturers are on top”.

Only I can judge how far I am comfortable in inviting abuse from my students by being direct in opposing the ideology, how much I feel up for that fight given other stresses in my life.

I expect many others are in the same boat.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 30/08/2025 10:05

Your gentle reminder

American students are faking their wokeness, Justin Webb in the Times
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 30/08/2025 10:06

Above not aimed at you, @nutmeg7

Barbadossunset · 30/08/2025 10:13

On my ds’s university Spanish course his tutor refused to admit that the communists as well as the fascist committed appalling atrocities in the Spanish Civil War - or at least, claimed the communists’ evil acts were a result of provocation and therefore forgivable.
I suppose it’s not surprising. Stalin was not short of supporters who had never been to the Soviet Union - or if they had, they fell for the sanitised version they were shown.

Shedmistress · 30/08/2025 10:22

When I went to Uni in the very late 90s [1998 I think] as an already mature student the very first book every humanities course had on their reading list was the Communist Manifesto. This has been going on for a long, long time.

CarobBean72 · 30/08/2025 12:29

Preference falsification is a thing.

(By which I mean it’s an expression I’ve only just learned, & it’s very useful!)

Kurkara · 30/08/2025 12:38

I'd love to read your paper, @Academiccoward . I didn't get round to reading George Elliot until I was in my 40s and, based on the people who love her, thought I was in for a real treat. I've... struggled... and I wonder what it is I'm missing.

Morningsleepin · 30/08/2025 12:41

Shedmistress · 30/08/2025 10:22

When I went to Uni in the very late 90s [1998 I think] as an already mature student the very first book every humanities course had on their reading list was the Communist Manifesto. This has been going on for a long, long time.

What's the harm in reading the Communist Manifesto"? How can you be against Marx, if you haven't even read him?

AliasGrace47 · 30/08/2025 15:06

What do they mean when they say the students felt they had to lie about 'family values'?

In US discourse, my understanding is that this term was often used by those who opposed feminism and gay rights. However, I understand it can mean many different things. And obvs, a person who opposes feminism or gay rights still shoupd have the right to express the view.

TempestTost · 31/08/2025 02:11

Barbadossunset · 30/08/2025 10:13

On my ds’s university Spanish course his tutor refused to admit that the communists as well as the fascist committed appalling atrocities in the Spanish Civil War - or at least, claimed the communists’ evil acts were a result of provocation and therefore forgivable.
I suppose it’s not surprising. Stalin was not short of supporters who had never been to the Soviet Union - or if they had, they fell for the sanitised version they were shown.

Apologists including the Labour Party in the UK. This stuff is not new for them.

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