some parallels

[Manfreglory]

I've been teasing out this idea, that transphobia and xenophobia have much in common.

• both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.

• both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.

• both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.

• both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?

• both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'

• both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.

• both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.

• both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

Yes. Sex is real. Transwomen are men, Transmen are women, people should use correct-sex facilities.

Drunken aggression should be prosecuted whoever it comes from. If a public information is needed to explain any of this after the confusion in the last few years, have a public information campaign.

Even if a transman is very tall (she would have to be over 5'11" minimum to look unusually tall to other women) and on T, her hips will still show her sex. Even if T made her go bald and grow a beard, and altered her pubic hair distribution. Her shape will still be female, her gait will still be female. She will not have male sex organs, she cannot be a father.

I don't care if she is sexually attracted to women. I am a little wary of mentally unwell women who take T because it can cause odd behavior, but they should still use correct-sex spaces.

Using correct-sex spaces will not make trans people cease to exist, it will not change their gender. It simply prioritises sex (which is real and universal) over gender (which is imaginary and not experienced by most people). Trans people will still have the exact same access to facilities, just in different rooms.

They don't have male sex organs, they have a piece of flesh that has been carved out of their arm or leg and sewn on to their genital area.

I'm pretty sure that the (incredibly tiny) number of people who have had that procedure in the UK are not spending their time down at the local swimming pool, so the question of which changing rooms they are using is pretty moot.

Of course they exist as trans.

A trans person is just someone who believes they should be the opposite sex to the one they actually are.

You don't have to believe that God exists to recognise that Christians exist.

It's more like claiming that the existence of atheists makes Christians cease to exist.

It doesn't. My not believing in gender does not prevent a person who does believe in gender doing so and living according to their belief. But they do need to know that they also have a sex, which is important medically and recognised in law.

It is indeed revealing to see the sexist stereotypes rolled out on this thread!

And how deeply some people misunderstand the feminist position on single sex provisions.

That someone is surprised that women are largely fine with transmen in women's spaces, is really inconvenient to their prejudiced belief about what so many of us are saying. That is why they then go through all the performative 'whataboutery'.

And of course, they then never realise that they themselves are failing to centre people who are transgender in their points. They are however, centring male people. In other words, men.

Here you go @Manfreglory . In case you missed this one?

And this one @Manfreglory .

This is always the issue for me. Transwomen spend an inordinate amount of time and effort on trying to get into women’s spaces. They never campaign on making male spaces safer for them.

I don’t see campaigns asking why they are denied jobs, housing or services because they are trans.

The point of the Equality Act 2010 was to ensure that those who identify as trans can’t be discriminated against because they are trans. It gave protections for trans people to not be fired or denied a restaurant table because they are trans. It specifically said that even if a man identified as trans and had a Gender Recognition Certificate they should be denied access to single sex spaces for the privacy, dignity and safety of women.

The wails and squeals we hear from the trans community is that this is against their rights. Those are not their rights. And the rights of women are ignored and trampled on as a result.

So men wanting access to women’s spaces are insisting on this rather than campaigning for safety in men’s single sex spaces, or to not lose their job or not get a job because they are trans.

And we have to ask why this is the case. The answer is because they get validation from being seen and treated as women and they enjoy women being uncomfortable when they invade their spaces. Who the hell thinks that is acceptable?

Also, someone requested a T-shirt.

Ooooh that was me, thanks😍

By the way, anyone else seriously thinking 'WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK' at this line from a poster that has been nothing but derogatory on this thread that they created to belittle women who won't prioritise male people accessing female single sex provisions?

"While I'm sure of all this, I'm not sure how it should work if somebody identifies as trans and feels trans but hadn't made any changes to their outward appearance or biology. Can it pave the way for a mass invasion of women's spaces? I doubt it but I am not as sure as you all seem to be about your position. You put all trans people together; I suspect there might be different rights of access and usage but I know I'm setting myself up for a virtual bloodbath here."

It is remarkable the victim narrative that this poster has built up in their mind. That they should be free to belittle, diminish and derogate others but that disagreement with them is a 'virtual bloodbath'. It reminds me of a teenager going and ringing a stranger's bell for fun and then running away and then claiming to be a victim because the stranger shut the door after finding no one there.

R.e. this point of the OP's, anyone know if it's true below or does "every country" mean the USA and a few European ones? I don't see it is remotely relevant (love the Beetle t shirt) being a liberalish atheist but kinda interesting.

I'm sure there's many reasons for differing development. Personally I find some of the TRA philosophy rather reminiscent of the works of George Orwell which is part of our national consciousness. British politics also tends to he less abstractly ideological than parts of Europe.

Against the OP UK Reform and Ann Widdicombe have been supporting "trans rights" to some degree and called "woke" by the Left. She is also opposed to abortion, gay marriage and thinks migrants should be held in detention centres. I wouldn't say "hate" though.

It's a liberal democracy I respect that everyone has different viewpoints and values including those who are GC or not.

"Just in case you don't know, in every country other than this one, equating sex with gender and insulting trans women by trying to keep them out of female space (ie. treating them like men) is 100% the purview of the Right. Often, Christian fundamentalists who also hate abortion, gay marriage and yes, migrants. You can tell a lot about people by the company you keep. Well done Mumsnet!"

It goes back to trying to prohibit people from saying the truth doesn't it? And controlling language we use by saying it's inherently insulting even if highly relevant.

At risk of being rather pointed, I can categorically tell you it's not true on the basis of its emphatic absolutism.

If I were on the same team as the Ayatollah and Nigel Farage, this would not be the argument I'd go for.

And, to support that with evidence:

communistparty.org.uk/2025/04/18/joint-statement-on-the-uk-supreme-court-ruling-on-biological-sex-and-the-equality-act-2010/

So we'll just let the actual men with actual working willies in instead then shall we? Just because they've got womanly feelings in their head?

I couldn’t have put it better myself!

I think some people are sadly afflicted and can't hear the voices of leftwing women.

They can only hear the voices of right wing men who jumped on the band wagon years later and are making a different argument.

They assume that women can't think for themselves, rather like those who opposed/oppose female suffrage.

Apparently the OP is among them.

I also think that the OP cannot hear themselves at all either.

Hadn't seen that before, many thanks.

I get the impression OP has actually clocked that there are indeed left wing GCs in the UK, as well as right wing TWAWs. And perhaps even realised that this multipolarity is why we've done so well. Hence the attempt to present what's going on in North America elsewhere as something we should afford higher importance to when assessing our own political landscape.

It is virtually impossible to get through to many males on this issue. They experience mild or zero privacy and dignity violations when exposed in a state of undress to the opposite sex. In fact, we know that some of them relish it. They do not feel the same type of discomfort under the female gaze that we feel under the male one. Their experiences of physical vulnerability comes from their own sex, not from females. Many of them are blind to the significant physical and psychological effects that male infancy, puberty and socialisation have wrought on them.
They do understand the concept of fairness though, and that is why so much headway has been made in the area of sport.

R.e. communist party I did to my surprise realise the Morning Star is still going (sold at the Coop). I am not communist, I appreciate quality journalism.

Here's an article from a GC transwomen. You can read so many articles a month free. I don't know how to archive sorry.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-cb92-the-conflict-between-feminism-and-the-transgender-movement-1

There is still the OP's example apparently that UK is "unique" in having GC left wing views. I'm just curious about this, so any further thoughts, examples or counterexamples welcome.

Other than it seems rather far fetched as there are a lot of democratic countries, political parties and movements.

It is pretty inconvenient that the Communist party released that statement

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:01

"anytime someone says 'it's a universal human belief', you know what's coming next is going to be pretty stupid."

Gosh @Manfreglory , The Communist Party says:

"This materialist outcome corroborates our view that “sex” must mean biological sex for the purposes of the Act and any other interpretations would negate its single sex statutory protections."

Imagine continuing to pigeon hole women who believe the same thing that the Communist Party has stated as being 'right wing'.... Imagine telling women that when they use the term 'universal belief' (which I think you misquoted by the way), that they going to say something that is 'pretty stupid'.

What about this:

50,000 Australians filled in this survey.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/all-the-questions-in-one-place-from-great-aussie-debate/news-story/ca8ab531382816ec97a4151b9088fab7

18. Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete in women’s sport?
No = 82.6%
It depends on the sport = 8.2%
I don’t know = 4.9%
Trans women are women = 4.2%

40. Do you share your gender pronouns in your email signature or in social media profiles?
No = 48.2%
No, but respect others’ pronouns = 28.2%
No, it is too confusing = 11.2%
Yes, but I don’t care what others do = 5.3%
Yes, and I appreciate when others do = 4.9%
Prefer not to say = 1.7%
My workplace doesn’t allow it = 0.5%

I've already said I have no opinion on that.