Transwomen and transmen do not have DSDs - discuss

[NextRinny]

I postulate that:
With the same proportion as in the general population, the group of people who identify as trans do not have any biological defect in their sexual development pathway.

I don't know if gender dysphoria has a neurological cause. If it does, then I suppose it could be considered a DSD.

If the cause was neurological then it wouldn’t be a sexual development disorder.

I’m not aware of any evidence that disproves your statement. And there are many cases of people with a trans identity who are fertile, in all cases congruent with their sex not their gender identity. This is so obvious and apparent it shouldn’t need saying.

Yup I agree. DSDs/intersex are NOTHING TO DO with trans WHATSOEVER. Also humans are not clownfish. HTH.

The (real) existence of DSDs is often use to justify the “things aren’t binary” argument. But you have very few instances of people who call themselves trans claiming that they actually do have a DSD. So to me, DSD and trans are two completely different things. One is biology, one is “feelings”.

True. If there was no binary there would be nothing for the SD to differ from. DSD would be a redundant term.

The clue is in the name. A disorder of sexual development affects your reproductive organs, not your brain.

What's this bloody -Discuss in the titles I've seen lately, Sounds like you think you're a lectureer at a college.

It's a disorder, not the expected usual development of sexual characteristics in humans. Every person with a DSD is still either male or female. There is no third sex, or 'intersex'.

DSDs have nothing to do with being transgender. In fact, I am not aware of any transgender person with a DSD. As far as I am aware, the only thing any person born with a DSD has said about it is that they don't want to be dragged into the debate.

It's very Sixth Form essay topic, isn't it?

There seems to be zero correlation between having a DSD and being 'trans'.

The whole topic is pure distraction and confusion causing.

1. You don't require gender dysphoria to belong to the trans group
2. I am not redefining DSD
3. Gender dysphoria does not disrupt biological sexual development.
4. If you don't like the thread title take it up with the scolders. They started it!

It’s in response to threads specifically meant for other issues being derailed by discussions which are irrelevant in that context but may be interesting.
if you don’t want to discuss an issue why open the thread to complain about its title?

I concur with your thesis.

Sure a poster with an agenda will be along to scold and educate us though once they've has their tea.

I don't agree - DSD is a a disorder (or difference) of sexual development, so to do with the sexed body ie the reproductive system being fully developed as either male or female, or whether something has gone wrong with this part of the physical developmental pathway.

It isn't to do with gender dysphoria being experienced in a human body of either sex that is completely normal in it's sexual development and functioning.

Gender dysphoria is not a DSD.

Of course they don't, it's just creepy men trying to convince us that 'sex is a spectrum', and we need to know our chromosomes and other such nonsense 8

I think it is more complicated than that and there is crossover. I've seen someone talk about how having a dsd did influence their gender dysphoria (Aaron Kimberley).

Having a DSD can influence your sense of self, your understanding of how you fit into the aspects of society that are related to sex.

Other things that can influence your sense of self, your understanding of how you fit into many aspects of society, including those that are related to sex:

• Being autistic.
• The physical and emotional changes of going through puberty.
• Being the victim of sexual assault.
• Being the victim of bullying.
• Being homosexual.
• Being unwilling to follow gendered stereotypes.

So-called Gender Dysphoria can also be an attempt to escape from internal distress caused by external factors, or to find clarity in confusing situations.

This is entirely different from the GD claims of fetishistic or power-hungry men. It harms people with DSDs to be forced-teamed with such men.

A study of karyotype on patients at Melbourne’s RCH Gender clinic found no evidence of any variation to suggest DSDs:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6083207/

So it is entirely correct to say that people who identify as trans have no higher incidence of DSDs than the rest of the population. That assumes, of course, that the term DSD isn’t redefined to include people it shouldn’t, as is the wont of trans activists.

Everyone has an opinion about their body. Our opinions influence daily decisions, to diet, to exercise, to drink, to smoke, to wear makeup or prosthetics.

The sexual development as well as myriad other systems in the body continue on their path.

A person who has a dsd cannot transform into a person who does not have a dsd.

By the way, the hypothesis boundary is that most people who identify as trans do not have a dsd.

For context, I'm a TW, although I would say I'm moreso of the transmedicalist opinion. I'm not going to claim to be a woman or female for example, I believe the truth is important!

I think your statement is verifiably scientifically true. Anecdotally I know plenty of TWs and none have mentioned any actual DSD, and I do not suspect I have one.

For wider discussion though, I think though I also feel like @Cattenberg suggests that GD probably has a neurological basis, and while SD is defined to only cover anatomy (not seeking to redefine this!) I think some (not all) cases of GD are perhaps Differences of Neurological Development or something like that. Anecdotally, my (GC!) mother fully agrees I showed consistent signs of GD in early childhood as with adulthood, and I was not traumatised, abused, etc. So to me a brain development anomaly seems the most reasonable explanation of why I feel the way I do. Indeed, my understanding is that TW brain MRIs do show some statistically atypical structures, so there could well be a physical basis in the brain for some cases of GD. I guess we'd need some super long term study comparing child brain MRIs with GD incidence to actually verify if this link seems causal. The other interesting study I've seen suggests a higher incidence of GD in both members of identical twin pairs compared with non-identical same-sex twins, which is suggestive thar GD has a genetic or epigenetic basis, since the identical twins only differ from the non-identical ones in sharing genetics.

There is no brain scan that can identify women from men

women are more likely to have a trauma indication in their brain and this is more likely also in transowmen - but it’s an indication of trauma not sex - you will find returning soldiers of either sex will have a similar structure and we can’t start calling them women unless they happen to be women

the scary thing about you claiming it’s in the brain structure is that for centuries ( 2/3 thousand years ) men have used the “female brain” to prevent women from having full hunan rights - our brains would be damaged by voting ffs

unless and until genuine evidence arrives that shows brains are actually different in the womb then I must insist you do not imply that my brain is different from men because I have lived nearly 60 years having to disprove that assumption every year - from being bullied because I can do maths to be ignored in meetings because there was no way I was the technical expert

what causes transgender feelings is unclear and I suspect there are multiple causes - very few actually emerge in very young children and in older children and adults they preset as strongly related to male/ female stereotypes suggesting a social cause

I think that even if it has a neurological basis, like another branch of neurodiversity, we have to tackle the evidently false belief that some trans people have that this gender dysphoria or psychological pain means they are literally the opposite sex.

I know that not all trans people believe this is literally true, but there are so many that do claim this, and it is causing a lot of difficulties for single sex provisions particularly for women.

The belief that it is somehow possible to be really the opposite sex from your body has formed the basis for so much damaging policy and silencing of dissent. It isn’t healthy or sustainable to expect everyone to subsume their own wellbeing to avoid disturbing the bubble of pretence that surrounds the trans person who requires this constant affirmation

I can absolutely see the neurodiversity connection, every trans person I know (all in their 20s) is also neurodiverse. I just wish we could find a common understanding of the phenomenon that doesn’t require magical thinking. In fact I have seen some really interesting and compelling discussion from psychiatrists on the issue. But unfortunately the black and white thinking that often goes with neurodiversity called itself to wanting clear cut simple answers.

And while we are in the current political climate that only wants to “be kind” and to accommodate any and all requests from the trans activist lobby, seeking actual knowledge and understanding about why a person arrives at a trans identity or experiences persistent gender dysphoria remains something that has to be done under the radar. We need open dialogue and research, not gaslighting the population into professing a belief that most people don’t really hold.

Even if it was proven that some men's brains are slightly different to other men's brains - they're still men aren't they?

All that tells us is that there's more diversity within brains than we thought.