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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DH -v- The WI, Thread 2

703 replies

Another2Cats · 22/07/2025 07:33

@RareGoalsVerge rightly pointed out (thank you) on my previous thread that it was getting near the limit and that I should start a second thread, so this is it.

This is a link to the first thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

So, a recap.

DH has long had an interest in a couple of activities that were only offered locally by the WI. Obviously, it never crossed his mind to try and join as the WI is a woman only organisation - or so he thought.

But then, following the FWS case, the WI made an announcement that they would continue accepting trans identifying men (TIM) as members.

I suggested to DH that he could now join the WI and jokingly said (although it wasn't really funny, I'm not good at jokes) that he wouldn't have to bother with a wig and lippy any more.

So DH applied to join the local federation and was rejected.

Various things then happened and DH is now bringing a sex discrimination claim against the WI.

The WI instructed a big Tier 1 London law firm, one of the partners of which then called DH and explained that they would be relying on section 158, Equality Act and invited him to withdraw his claim.

After that they sent a letter to DH stating that in addition to the section 158 defence it was also the case that the WI "does not purport to establish single sex membership within the meaning of the EqA"

They went on to say:

"As such, it is free to define “women who have reached the Age of Majority” within its Membership Rules as it pleases, as long as its definition is not discriminatory. As we explain below, the definition “women who live as women, including transgender women” is not discriminatory."

They also said that their membership policy does not discriminate on the grounds of sex or render reassignment and that:

"The Membership Policy does not exclude anyone on these grounds. It allows for the admission of “biological” men as members, as long as they are living as women. It also allows for the admission of people who are not trans, as long as they are living as women."
.

So that is where we are as of today. The next step in the process will be in early August so there probably won't be any substantive update to the thread until then.

But, as I said earlier, even though I don't always reply to every post I do read every single comment (often more than once) and having people take an interest really does make a difference. Thank you.
.

PS In their letter, they put quotation marks around the word biological - "biological" (see above). Both DH and I were rather confused by this and thought that they were perhaps quoting him in the Particulars of Claim, but DH hadn't used that term.

On looking at the letter in more detail, the answer was found in one of the footnotes. They said:

2 Where references are made to “biological” sex in in this letter, quotation marks are used to make it clear that we refer to the term as used by the Supreme Court in FWS, to mean sex as recorded at birth. This is not a term that NFWI would otherwise use itself, because sex (including the sex of trans and intersex people) is not binary in this way.

[emphasis added]

Well, it's going to be interesting to hear that point argued in court. DH did make a point in the Particulars of Claim to keep referring to "men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment", perhaps this annoyed them a bit?

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them. | Mumsnet

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the S...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

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myplace · 03/08/2025 14:06

Thing is @Merrymouse , The Feminine Institute conjures an organisation wearing a frilly bonnet.

The Institute for the Femine, perhaps. What about the butcher jam makers? Would the current members be satisfied with that?

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 03/08/2025 14:35

You've assumed that woman gender is the same thing as feminine or femininity. When I've asked trans people whether that's true, they haven't answered. Repeatedly over the years.

It would actually make people's understanding a lot clearer if it was agreed that that was what genderists mean, but they don't like you clarify.

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 14:46

myplace · 03/08/2025 14:06

Thing is @Merrymouse , The Feminine Institute conjures an organisation wearing a frilly bonnet.

The Institute for the Femine, perhaps. What about the butcher jam makers? Would the current members be satisfied with that?

I'm imagining that there would be a schism.

ArabellaScott · 03/08/2025 14:53

Who would be excluded from a Feminine Institute?

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 14:55

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 03/08/2025 14:35

You've assumed that woman gender is the same thing as feminine or femininity. When I've asked trans people whether that's true, they haven't answered. Repeatedly over the years.

It would actually make people's understanding a lot clearer if it was agreed that that was what genderists mean, but they don't like you clarify.

To be fair, many religions don't make sense if you start drilling down - for example the Bible infers a lot of incest and living to unfeasibly old age, to say nothing of the apparent toxicity of God's relationship with humans.

If somebody wants to have a genderist society that makes jam, I am happy for them to do so. Their views might all be rather sexist, but again, plenty of religions are sexist.

I draw the line at the point where they say that I have to agree that I have either a gender or a soul, and that this is implicit in the law of the land.

Talkinpeace · 03/08/2025 15:00

Missed your first thread
and skimmed this
BUT
Your DH needs to call himself "Pete" and reference Naomi Cunningham's analogy whenever he can ....

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 15:00

ArabellaScott · 03/08/2025 14:53

Who would be excluded from a Feminine Institute?

Men who don't identify as women

Women who don't identify as cis.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2025 15:01

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 13:37

The Feminine institute?

I don’t mind that, although I disagree that most of these men are feminine in any meaningful sense. It conjures up Emily Howard to me.

myplace · 03/08/2025 15:17

My objection is grammatical. Feminine applies to the institute, rather than its members.

You could have a Femininity Institute.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 03/08/2025 15:20

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 14:55

To be fair, many religions don't make sense if you start drilling down - for example the Bible infers a lot of incest and living to unfeasibly old age, to say nothing of the apparent toxicity of God's relationship with humans.

If somebody wants to have a genderist society that makes jam, I am happy for them to do so. Their views might all be rather sexist, but again, plenty of religions are sexist.

I draw the line at the point where they say that I have to agree that I have either a gender or a soul, and that this is implicit in the law of the land.

I agree, but what I'm saying is there's not even any agreement over what gender identity is.

You've assumed it's something to do with femininity/masculinity, quite understandably, but I don't think that's what genderists would agree.

For all I know they could be earnestly thinking that women are people of either sex whose souls or essences enjoy playing tiddlywinks, and men are those people whose souls enjoy playing marbles.

WandaSiri · 03/08/2025 15:20

Genderist Institute works. But the MCWs would hate that it doesn't have "women" in the title.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 03/08/2025 15:24

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 15:00

Men who don't identify as women

Women who don't identify as cis.

Plenty of men don't ID as women yet have characteristics that could be described as feminine.

So would there need to be a threshold? If you're feeling a bit gobby one day you need to wear a bigger, frillier bonnet to make up for it?! Or perhaps you feel like wearing comfy clompy boots so need to be a bit more giggly than usual? Grin

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 15:27

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 03/08/2025 15:24

Plenty of men don't ID as women yet have characteristics that could be described as feminine.

So would there need to be a threshold? If you're feeling a bit gobby one day you need to wear a bigger, frillier bonnet to make up for it?! Or perhaps you feel like wearing comfy clompy boots so need to be a bit more giggly than usual? Grin

I feel these details are for the genderists to decide. Frankly, I think there are going to be splitters.

WandaSiri · 03/08/2025 15:28

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 03/08/2025 15:24

Plenty of men don't ID as women yet have characteristics that could be described as feminine.

So would there need to be a threshold? If you're feeling a bit gobby one day you need to wear a bigger, frillier bonnet to make up for it?! Or perhaps you feel like wearing comfy clompy boots so need to be a bit more giggly than usual? Grin

😁

NoWordForFluffy · 03/08/2025 15:34

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 15:27

I feel these details are for the genderists to decide. Frankly, I think there are going to be splitters.

monty python GIF

.

helluvatime · 03/08/2025 16:22

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2025 13:29

I do have an issue with it, I think all “gender” based groups should be obliged to make that clear, so I wouldn’t support them being able to call themselves the “Women’s Institute” because it isn’t true. I have no objection in principle to men who identify as women and those women who support them forming organisations but they aren’t “women only” or “women focussed”.

I have an issue with it too. These groups were set up for women (real women) by women (real women). If some people want to set up a mixed sex group for people of both sexes who feel a bit feminine they can do that without colonizing existing organisations.

Marmaladelover · 03/08/2025 16:36

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 13:25

For the record, I would have no problem with the WI limiting their membership to people who self define as having a female gender - so people who describe themselves as 'cis' and trans women. That is a belief based group, and if I don't share that belief, it is none of my business. (Although I appreciate that there would be administrative hassle if there were a split in the organisation).

I object to the the attempt to impose gender on all women, which I think is just basic feminism.

You might not object to it but the law disagrees with you. You can discriminate on the basis of gender reassignment or on the basis of sex and completely separate protected characteristic. But not mix the two.

The Supreme Court decision clarified this and the Pool case on Friday confirmed it .

So I will ignore all the flippant comments this afternoon on the new femininity institute and whatever because
a)it intensely gets my goat because I wouldn’t qualify because I don’t possess a frilly bonnet
b) it wouldn’t be allowed anyway by law
c) Pete the Cat would still sue!

As you were! < turns and slinks off again ….>

myplace · 03/08/2025 16:41

Acronyms appear to have moved on while I wasn’t looking.

MCW? Male Cuntless women?
Men Coveting Women?
Male Chromosoned Womanly people?

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 16:58

Marmaladelover · 03/08/2025 16:36

You might not object to it but the law disagrees with you. You can discriminate on the basis of gender reassignment or on the basis of sex and completely separate protected characteristic. But not mix the two.

The Supreme Court decision clarified this and the Pool case on Friday confirmed it .

So I will ignore all the flippant comments this afternoon on the new femininity institute and whatever because
a)it intensely gets my goat because I wouldn’t qualify because I don’t possess a frilly bonnet
b) it wouldn’t be allowed anyway by law
c) Pete the Cat would still sue!

As you were! < turns and slinks off again ….>

I think you might be misunderstanding what I am suggesting.

Gender identity is not a protected characteristic, therefore it is not illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender identity. If somebody wants to have a club for people who believe they have a particular gender (or species), that is not unlawful, as long as it is open equally to men and women. There are clubs for people who enjoy many different activities and interests, and it is legal to be discriminatory about membership, as long as you don't unlawfully discriminate against people with a protected characteristic.

It would be unlawful to have a club for women of any gender or none, but apply more restrictive gender criteria to men.

WandaSiri · 03/08/2025 17:03

myplace · 03/08/2025 16:41

Acronyms appear to have moved on while I wasn’t looking.

MCW? Male Cuntless women?
Men Coveting Women?
Male Chromosoned Womanly people?

Men Claiming to be Women.

Talkinpeace · 03/08/2025 17:09

FWIW most WI branch members think HQ are barking
same with many Guide leaders about their HQ
and some Libdem branches about THEIR HQ

Gender ideology is top down via social media / web teams
many front line members shrug and wait for it to pass

SabrinaThwaite · 03/08/2025 17:54

Has anyone spotted the lovely Steph of Translucent posting on X about getting involved?

DH -v- The WI, Thread 2
Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2025 18:42

WandaSiri · 03/08/2025 17:03

Men Claiming to be Women.

Ah, I was thinking “cosplaying”.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 03/08/2025 19:00

It seems the OP's DH has made the cut but not as top a priority as the Hampstead Heath's Ladies Pool. 😂