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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DH -v- The WI, Thread 2

703 replies

Another2Cats · 22/07/2025 07:33

@RareGoalsVerge rightly pointed out (thank you) on my previous thread that it was getting near the limit and that I should start a second thread, so this is it.

This is a link to the first thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

So, a recap.

DH has long had an interest in a couple of activities that were only offered locally by the WI. Obviously, it never crossed his mind to try and join as the WI is a woman only organisation - or so he thought.

But then, following the FWS case, the WI made an announcement that they would continue accepting trans identifying men (TIM) as members.

I suggested to DH that he could now join the WI and jokingly said (although it wasn't really funny, I'm not good at jokes) that he wouldn't have to bother with a wig and lippy any more.

So DH applied to join the local federation and was rejected.

Various things then happened and DH is now bringing a sex discrimination claim against the WI.

The WI instructed a big Tier 1 London law firm, one of the partners of which then called DH and explained that they would be relying on section 158, Equality Act and invited him to withdraw his claim.

After that they sent a letter to DH stating that in addition to the section 158 defence it was also the case that the WI "does not purport to establish single sex membership within the meaning of the EqA"

They went on to say:

"As such, it is free to define “women who have reached the Age of Majority” within its Membership Rules as it pleases, as long as its definition is not discriminatory. As we explain below, the definition “women who live as women, including transgender women” is not discriminatory."

They also said that their membership policy does not discriminate on the grounds of sex or render reassignment and that:

"The Membership Policy does not exclude anyone on these grounds. It allows for the admission of “biological” men as members, as long as they are living as women. It also allows for the admission of people who are not trans, as long as they are living as women."
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So that is where we are as of today. The next step in the process will be in early August so there probably won't be any substantive update to the thread until then.

But, as I said earlier, even though I don't always reply to every post I do read every single comment (often more than once) and having people take an interest really does make a difference. Thank you.
.

PS In their letter, they put quotation marks around the word biological - "biological" (see above). Both DH and I were rather confused by this and thought that they were perhaps quoting him in the Particulars of Claim, but DH hadn't used that term.

On looking at the letter in more detail, the answer was found in one of the footnotes. They said:

2 Where references are made to “biological” sex in in this letter, quotation marks are used to make it clear that we refer to the term as used by the Supreme Court in FWS, to mean sex as recorded at birth. This is not a term that NFWI would otherwise use itself, because sex (including the sex of trans and intersex people) is not binary in this way.

[emphasis added]

Well, it's going to be interesting to hear that point argued in court. DH did make a point in the Particulars of Claim to keep referring to "men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment", perhaps this annoyed them a bit?

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them. | Mumsnet

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the S...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 19:57

So on the s158 defence, it's interesting that they are attempting to shoehorn this into all 3 limbs of s158.

First limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(a) persons who share a protected characteristic suffer a disadvantage connected to the characteristic," and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to overcome or minimise that disadvantage,"

What I find thoroughly bizarre here is that they seem to be suggesting that it's the other provisions of the Equality Act itself which creates the disadvantage, and s158 should be used to overcome it. They say that transwomen face exclusion from activities for women and girls (both pre- and post-transition) because as males for the purposes of the EA2010 they are not permitted to access single sex spaces and activities.

All legislation should be interpreted purposively - i.e. in line with Parliament's intentions. The Supreme Court concluded in FWS that Parliament had intended for groups to be able to restrict their membership on the basis of biological sex. It cannot be right that Parliament would have chosen to include single sex provisions, and known that this would mean the exclusion of transwomen, but have intended that this would be addressed by using s158 to create single gender provisions via the back door. If Parliament had wanted single gender provisions as an option, they would have simply included those as an option alongside the single sex provisions. This cannot be the kind of disadvantage that s158 is intended to cover.

It also doesn't seem entirely clear to me how their actions are a proportionate means intended to overcome or minimise that disadvantage. For example, they point to poor mental health, but the WI isn't a therapy group intended to address mental health issues.

Second limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(b)persons who share a protected characteristic have needs that are different from the needs of persons who do not share it," and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "meeting those needs"

The needs they point to are:
(i) accessing environments where they can feel included among other people living with the same gender as them; and
(ii) accessing opportunities that they may have been of felt excluded from as a result of being trans.

As I think you've noted before OP, this is odd because transwomen and women do not share a protected characteristic. And again it raises the same question of why would Parliament not have included single gender provisions if it had intended for these purported "needs" to be able to be met in this way.

The "opportunities" but is particularly strange. At first I wondered what "opportunities" this referred to, and then I noticed this further down:
"The WI offers trans women access to practical and educational opportunities that they have not been or felt able to access. Most directly, the WI enables and encourages trans women to access the opportunities and activities offered by WIs."

So transwomen have a purported "need" to access activities offered by the WI to women. How is that need any different to your DH's needs? Both will be excluded from organisations offering those activities to women that rely on the SSE, but the basis of such exclusion is the protected characteristic of sex not because of being trans. Are they saying that transwomen can only do these activities in a feminine environment whereas your DH would be happy in a men's or mixed sex group? Again, it just seems illogical to say that transwomen have a need to not be excluded from women's groups - it's not the kind of "need" that s158 is aimed at. The explanatory notes give the example of supplementary maths classes for underperforming students who share a protected characteristic.

Third limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(c)participation in an activity by persons who share a protected characteristic is disproportionately low" and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to participate in that activity."

They claim that:
"(c) Trans women have disproportionately low participation in certain activities. These activities include:
(i) educational opportunities;
(ii) professions and jobs; and
(iii) roles in public life."

I would love to see their evidence for this as I am very skeptical of this claim, and they will need some evidence if they want to rely on this provision.

Again, it doesn't seem to me to be what s158 is aimed at in any event. It's normally used where a service provider offers generic activities but notices that it has low participation from certain groups and so decides to offer additional activities aimed at encouraging participation from that underrepresented group. There are some examples here - see eg page 141 https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/servicescode_0.pdf

Are they going to kick transwomen out of the WI if the participation stats in those areas increase?

None of this makes sense. And they need to show that their actions are proportionate in any event which seems a difficult task!

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/servicescode_0.pdf

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 22:44

Another2Cats · 09/08/2025 10:47

As to their claims that this is a lawful positive action under Section 158, I did a long post on that on the previous thread (see my first post on this thread for a link to the first thread). So I won’t repeat that here.

But I will just add, that the WI argue that any woman who becomes a member of the WI must accept TiM as members:

WI members choose to associate with each other on the basis that they welcome and include anyone who lives as a woman, whatever their recorded sex at birth (“the Membership Criterion”).”

Hmm, I wonder just how many women are aware of that when they sign up?

Going further, I wonder how many WI members are aware that they are expected to offer “support” and “acceptance” to validate the feelings of TiM to help improve their mental health?
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But there is one big thing that is overlooked in the defence (whether deliberately or not). It is that the WI is a charity with a constitution. Well, actually, it’s several thousand separate charities all of which are required to have the constitution that the NFWI provide for them.
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Please forgive my step into the history of the WI here but I found it very interesting.

The first WI group in the UK was set up in 1915 and then the national governing body (the NFWI) was set up in 1917. I’m not too sure when they first became a registered charity but the NFWI reorganised as a charitable company limited by guarantee in 1990.

Prior to that, from 1948 the objects of the WI were:

The main purpose of the Women's Institute movement is to improve and develop conditions of rural life. It seeks to give to all countrywomen the opportunity of working together through the Women's Institute organisation, and of putting into practice those ideals for which it stands.”

Up until 1965 they actually had a rule that local WIs could only be formed in places with a population of less than 4,000.

The constitution was then changed in 1970 and it’s interesting reading the governing document from back in 1990 when the NFWI became an incorporated organisation. In the 1990 document it states that “The objects are unchanged”, which is in relation to the 1970 constitution:

The National Federation is established to provide an organisation with the object of enabling countrywomen to take an effective part in the improvement and development of the conditions of rural life and to make provision to advance their education in citizenship, in public questions both national and international, in music, drama and other cultural subjects, and also to secure training for them, in all branches of agriculture, handicrafts, home economics, health and social welfare.

It exists to give all Women the opportunity of working together through the Women’s Institute organisation, and of putting into practice those ideals for which it stands.”

In case you’re wondering, “countrywomen” were defined in the 1970s and into the 1990s as:

Countrywomen means women living in rural areas and women living elsewhere who are interested in the promotion of the arts, crafts, and sciences associated with rural life”

There was a further minor change in the constitution in 2002 but then there was a very big change in 2013. This change brought in a number of different objects which I thought that they might rely on in the Defence but they haven’t mentioned that.
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The WI argue that they have a separate EDI policy that allows them to alter the meaning of the word “women” in their constitution.

However, a policy is separate and distinct from the constitution. The constitution focuses on the charity's purpose, membership and governance, while policies address specific areas of activity as well as legal and regulatory compliance.

If the policy had been incorporated by reference into the constitution then what the WI is arguing would be correct. But the constitution does not reference any other policy and so it is a stand alone document. Indeed the current constitution does not mention the words “equality”, “diversity” or “inclusion” anywhere within it.

If the constitution had said something like “The WI will follow its most current EDI policy” then that would have effect. But the constitution doesn’t say that.
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Even if they were to try and argue that the meaning of the word “women” in the constitution includes anyone who sees themselves as living as a woman, regardless of the EDI policy not being incorporated, then I still don’t see how they could do that.

Up until 2002 membership was restricted to “countrywomen”. That was gradually expanded to include all women by 2013. The “concept” or “category” of WI membership has expanded from one group of women to all women through express changes in the wording of the constitution.

Even without express changes in wording though, it is possible for what is included in a concept or category (women in this case) to change over time.

The classic example of this is the Bill of Rights 1688 that forbade “cruel and unusual punishments”. The concept of “cruelty” is the same today as it was then but, due to changes in social standards, punishments that wouldn’t have been considered cruel in 1688 will be regarded so today.

Or the concept of a child’s “welfare”. The word was used in the Guardianship of Infants Act 1925, now the Children Act 1989. The concept of welfare is, no doubt, the same today as it was in 1925 but the contents of that concept (what “welfare” actually looks like in a practical way), is to be judged today by the standards of reasonable men and women in 2025 – not the standards of their great great grandparents a 100 years ago or their parents back in 1989.

However, this does not mean that you can construe the language of the WI constitution to mean something conceptually different from what was intended. To try and include a group (men) that is conceptually different from the ordinary, accepted, meaning of “women”, seems to me to not be possible without expressly altering the constitution to reflect that change.
.

So, these are my thoughts, anyone else have any thoughts?

I might be completely wrong as I'm no expert on charity law, but if a charity is not complying with their own constitution isn't it the usual route of action a complaint to the Charity Commission? I am struggling to work out how those issues would fit in in the context of a discrimination claim if they are not relying on a s193 defence.

Another2Cats · 11/08/2025 07:07

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 19:57

So on the s158 defence, it's interesting that they are attempting to shoehorn this into all 3 limbs of s158.

First limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(a) persons who share a protected characteristic suffer a disadvantage connected to the characteristic," and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to overcome or minimise that disadvantage,"

What I find thoroughly bizarre here is that they seem to be suggesting that it's the other provisions of the Equality Act itself which creates the disadvantage, and s158 should be used to overcome it. They say that transwomen face exclusion from activities for women and girls (both pre- and post-transition) because as males for the purposes of the EA2010 they are not permitted to access single sex spaces and activities.

All legislation should be interpreted purposively - i.e. in line with Parliament's intentions. The Supreme Court concluded in FWS that Parliament had intended for groups to be able to restrict their membership on the basis of biological sex. It cannot be right that Parliament would have chosen to include single sex provisions, and known that this would mean the exclusion of transwomen, but have intended that this would be addressed by using s158 to create single gender provisions via the back door. If Parliament had wanted single gender provisions as an option, they would have simply included those as an option alongside the single sex provisions. This cannot be the kind of disadvantage that s158 is intended to cover.

It also doesn't seem entirely clear to me how their actions are a proportionate means intended to overcome or minimise that disadvantage. For example, they point to poor mental health, but the WI isn't a therapy group intended to address mental health issues.

Second limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(b)persons who share a protected characteristic have needs that are different from the needs of persons who do not share it," and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "meeting those needs"

The needs they point to are:
(i) accessing environments where they can feel included among other people living with the same gender as them; and
(ii) accessing opportunities that they may have been of felt excluded from as a result of being trans.

As I think you've noted before OP, this is odd because transwomen and women do not share a protected characteristic. And again it raises the same question of why would Parliament not have included single gender provisions if it had intended for these purported "needs" to be able to be met in this way.

The "opportunities" but is particularly strange. At first I wondered what "opportunities" this referred to, and then I noticed this further down:
"The WI offers trans women access to practical and educational opportunities that they have not been or felt able to access. Most directly, the WI enables and encourages trans women to access the opportunities and activities offered by WIs."

So transwomen have a purported "need" to access activities offered by the WI to women. How is that need any different to your DH's needs? Both will be excluded from organisations offering those activities to women that rely on the SSE, but the basis of such exclusion is the protected characteristic of sex not because of being trans. Are they saying that transwomen can only do these activities in a feminine environment whereas your DH would be happy in a men's or mixed sex group? Again, it just seems illogical to say that transwomen have a need to not be excluded from women's groups - it's not the kind of "need" that s158 is aimed at. The explanatory notes give the example of supplementary maths classes for underperforming students who share a protected characteristic.

Third limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(c)participation in an activity by persons who share a protected characteristic is disproportionately low" and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to participate in that activity."

They claim that:
"(c) Trans women have disproportionately low participation in certain activities. These activities include:
(i) educational opportunities;
(ii) professions and jobs; and
(iii) roles in public life."

I would love to see their evidence for this as I am very skeptical of this claim, and they will need some evidence if they want to rely on this provision.

Again, it doesn't seem to me to be what s158 is aimed at in any event. It's normally used where a service provider offers generic activities but notices that it has low participation from certain groups and so decides to offer additional activities aimed at encouraging participation from that underrepresented group. There are some examples here - see eg page 141 https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/servicescode_0.pdf

Are they going to kick transwomen out of the WI if the participation stats in those areas increase?

None of this makes sense. And they need to show that their actions are proportionate in any event which seems a difficult task!

DH has had the defence for several days now and has gone through a very similar thought process:

"None of this makes sense. And they need to show that their actions are proportionate in any event which seems a difficult task!"

You've expressed things much more clearly than DH ever could (thank you)

OP posts:
myplace · 11/08/2025 07:21

I’m agog that a charity set up to suooort women now has as a principle that those women must do extra emotional labour to support the men who join. How bloody outrageous for the WI to make its members support animals for men!

Another2Cats · 11/08/2025 07:26

Several posters have made similar points:

@NoBinturongsHereMate If the WI is single sex, it is using the exemption. If it's not using the exemption, it must admit both sexes on equal terms.

@EyesOpening "The WI is an inclusive, supportive and progressive organisation for all women with a diverse membership of over 180,000 members." (my bold)

@DarlingHoldMyHand In case it wasn't clear, I just don't see how they can offer a service which excludes men without relying on the SSE.

The basic argument by the WI is that all men and women are welcome to join the WI as long as they have some sort of special "womanly feeling" and no other objective criteria.

And that the definition of "women" in their constitution and other policies is not the generally accepted meaning of the word but just anyone with special "womanly feelings".

DH's claim was put on the basis of direct sex discrimination and I suspect that this is an attempt to get round any sort of "exact correspondence" issue as both men and TiF are excluded.

So, if you truly, truly, believe that you are a woman - in the same way that children are encouraged to believe in fairies in Peter Pan - then, yes, you can join the WI (with apologies to Rudyard Kipling) "And - which is more - you'll be a Woman my son!"

(and no doubt they'll also expect the Earth and everything that's in it as well!)

I really am not sure at all why they would seek to argue it this way unless perhaps they have been instructed to - or perhaps they have a cunning plan up their sleeves.

OP posts:
Another2Cats · 11/08/2025 07:32

KnottyAuty · 10/08/2025 17:19

Thanks for flagging this.
In refusing TIWs they simultaneously break their constitutional promise to be open to all women, whilst breaking their constitutional aim of positive action to support trans people (because only TIMs count apparently).
That’s a major hole in their defense

The positive action defence is put "In the alternative". This means that they're only putting that forward if their primary defence of actually being the Institute for "womanly feelings" fails.

If their primary defence fails then TiFs are or can be members of the WI anyway. It is only then that they would move on to the positive action defence

OP posts:
PsychoHotSauce · 11/08/2025 07:39

Call me paranoid, but is it wise to be discussing the defence and possible counters/flaws in it on such a public forum? Kind of feels like flashing your cards to the other players and explaining your thought process out loud before you say 'All in' Confused

I know this thread has been a wealth of information, but all it takes is for someone from admin to come across it and mention it at work. They're quietly watching your next moves before you make them which will keep them one (ten) step ahead.

The flip side potential is that the media picks this up first, and publicly picks a side (yours), embarrassing the WI. Risky though.

Another2Cats · 11/08/2025 07:48

PsychoHotSauce · 11/08/2025 07:39

Call me paranoid, but is it wise to be discussing the defence and possible counters/flaws in it on such a public forum? Kind of feels like flashing your cards to the other players and explaining your thought process out loud before you say 'All in' Confused

I know this thread has been a wealth of information, but all it takes is for someone from admin to come across it and mention it at work. They're quietly watching your next moves before you make them which will keep them one (ten) step ahead.

The flip side potential is that the media picks this up first, and publicly picks a side (yours), embarrassing the WI. Risky though.

The WI have already provided their Defence. As I mentioned above I am very specifically not referring in any way to anything that DH might be including in the Reply (although I did mention that he will be making use of CPR Part 18).

In any event, the Reply has to be served within 14 days of the Defence being received. The WI will be getting DH's Reply quite soon.

The actual hearing (if it gets that far) won't be for several months at least. I understand that the average time from issue to hearing in the County Court is around 10 months at the moment.

OP posts:
SabrinaThwaite · 11/08/2025 08:00

The EHRC guidance should be issued fairly soon, which might be helpful in clarifying what is and isn’t lawful.

EyesOpening · 11/08/2025 08:09

From this:

"does not purport to establish single sex membership within the meaning of the EqA"

they seem to be saying that they are having a "single sex" membership, just not as defined by the EqA i.e. they're using some other definition of single sex (people of either sex who are "living as women") and they think this is fine and dandy as though this is legal.

Here they seem to be saying that their definition isn't discriminatory rather than focusing on the fact that what they are doing is discriminatory unless they are using the SS exception:

"As such, it is free to define “women who have reached the Age of Majority” within its Membership Rules as it pleases, as long as its definition is not discriminatory."
As we explain below, the definition “women who live as women, including transgender women” is not discriminatory."

They also seem to think that because they are allowing some men and some transgender people to join, they are therefore not discriminating on the grounds of sex or GA, but on the grounds that they are not "living as women", again as though this is fine and dandy and not illegal:

They also said that their membership policy does not discriminate on the grounds of sex or gender reassignment and that:
"The Membership Policy does not exclude anyone on these grounds. It allows for the admission of “biological” men as members, as long as they are living as women. It also allows for the admission of people who are not trans, as long as they are living as women."

I am wondering if this is how they've told their lawyers they want to act, rather than their lawyers telling them this is the way to go, or if they think that sending this letter from their lawyers would make OP's husband think they must be right and drop it.

Szygy · 11/08/2025 08:30

It also allows for the admission of people who are not trans, as long as they are living as women.

When they add this seemingly tacked-on afterthought, do they mean…..women? Otherwise, who (or what) on earth do they mean? Or am I just hopelessly confused by their absolute hot mess of a defence?

wimonnzy · 11/08/2025 09:07

I cannot believe the WI has the audacity (and the money - membership subs and donations?) to defend this.

I can only think that someone in high office of that charity has skin in the game or something.

Good luck to you and DH. Keep the faith.

DarlingHoldMyHand · 11/08/2025 09:40

I suppose they have realised that the SSE doesn't work in the way they wanted it to post-FWS and so are looking for other reasons to avoid changing their policy. I can sort of see what they are going for. You could have a club which has some entry criterion which is completely unrelated to any of the PCs in the EA2010 - eg if the Britney Spears fan club will only accept Britney Spears fans - without that being discriminatory.

You could even I suppose have a criterion unrelated to the EA2010 which is going to have few members from a particular group - eg devout Muslims are not going to join a real ale club, and a club for tall people over 6'4" is going to be almost exclusively male. At best any difference in such examples would be the result of indirect discrimination and could be justified.

But I don't think that the WI approach is similar to those examples. I think their policy excludes men unless those men are willing to renounce their sex, and that IMO is direct sex discrimination which cannot be justified.

I also think if they are saying that their policy is that anyone with a womanly feeling can join and biology doesn't matter, this just isn't an accurate description of their policy. Their EDI policy on their website which still seems to be current (and would have been in force at the time of any discrimination even if they change it now) says that non-binary people can join as long as they are female at birth - i.e. biologically female. They don't seem to care that members who identify as NB won't have "special womanly feelings" and they are distinguishing based on biology.

https://www.thewi.org.uk/_data/assets/pdffile/0008/581885/NFWI-Equality,-Diversity-and-Inclusion-Policy-2021.pdf

https://www.thewi.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/581885/NFWI-Equality,-Diversity-and-Inclusion-Policy-2021.pdf

PencilsInSpace · 11/08/2025 11:35

(i) Trans women grow up feeling that they are truly female, but are generally excluded by girls and women, or from activities for girls and women.

...

(b) Arising from the above, trans women have needs connected to their protected characteristics. These needs include:

(i) accessing environments where they can feel included among other people living with the same gender as them; and

This is a disgusting argument. I feel sick.

They are blatantly arguing for women to be used as a resource to meet the 'needs' of tw. We already knew that's what it's all, always been about but I don't think I've ever heard them say the quiet part this loudly before.

They do this by first assuming that all their members 'live with' a 'gender' - i.e. that they do not have the protected characteristic of gender critical belief. Then on the basis of that assumption they argue that it is proportionate for WI to get their members to make tw 'feel included'.

But they know most women have at least to some extent GC beliefs because they say tw 'are generally excluded by girls and women'

Their constitution says:

All women who are interested in the values and purposes of the Women’s Institute organisation may join, no matter what their views on religion or politics may be.

So they can't exclude women with GC beliefs and this 'Membership Criterion' would appear to go against their constitution:

“WI members choose to associate with each other on the basis that they welcome and include anyone who lives as a woman, whatever their recorded sex at birth (“the Membership Criterion”).”

Is this actually written down anywhere that members have to sign or is it something they made up for their defence?

Even if women with GC beliefs were a minority, the constitution says:

This does not prevent WIs from concerning themselves with matters of political and religious significance, provided the views and rights of minorities are respected.

I can't see how they could argue they've done that.

Forstater seems to have completely passed them by.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/08/2025 11:39

PsychoHotSauce · 11/08/2025 07:39

Call me paranoid, but is it wise to be discussing the defence and possible counters/flaws in it on such a public forum? Kind of feels like flashing your cards to the other players and explaining your thought process out loud before you say 'All in' Confused

I know this thread has been a wealth of information, but all it takes is for someone from admin to come across it and mention it at work. They're quietly watching your next moves before you make them which will keep them one (ten) step ahead.

The flip side potential is that the media picks this up first, and publicly picks a side (yours), embarrassing the WI. Risky though.

I'd agree with you if their defence was a good one that required clever and detailed legal rebuttal. But I think it's a less important consideration when they've submitted an illogical blancmange of an argument that can be demolished by nothing more complex than 'You're having a laugh'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2025 12:53

If only that response had been used more widely in society from the start.

Silverbirchleaf · 11/08/2025 13:14

@DarlingHoldMyHand But I don’t think men even have to denounce their sex. They can still call themselves a man, but just have to say they live as a woman. It’s a bit like saying your daughter is a Tomboy. You’re know they’re female, but they would rather be playing football, climbing trees etc, then wearing pink and playing with dolls.

DarlingHoldMyHand · 11/08/2025 13:49

Silverbirchleaf · 11/08/2025 13:14

@DarlingHoldMyHand But I don’t think men even have to denounce their sex. They can still call themselves a man, but just have to say they live as a woman. It’s a bit like saying your daughter is a Tomboy. You’re know they’re female, but they would rather be playing football, climbing trees etc, then wearing pink and playing with dolls.

Sulverbirchleaf - Not denounce as in declaring men to be evil, but I am suggesting that they must effectively renounce their sex if they want to join - i.e. they effectively have to abandon their maleness to live the life of a woman and claim that they have female gender identity.

If they say that they are male and identify as male then they cannot join on my understanding of WI's position.

I don't think WI would accept whatever the male equivalent of a tomboy - i.e. somebody who knows that they are male but likes things typically stereotyped as being for women. You cannot live as a woman whilst asserting that you are a man.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/08/2025 14:07

You cannot live as a woman whilst asserting that you are a man.

Your mistake here is trying to apply logic to the illogical.

You cannot live as a woman whilst asserting that you are a man. But:

  • if transwomen are women
  • and only men can be transwomen
  • then transwomen are indeed living as women whilst asserting they are men
  • and also living as men whilst asserting they are women.
lcakethereforeIam · 11/08/2025 14:48

So transwomen, actual transwomen, who've had all the ops, wear the clothes, slather on the make-up, tilt the head, killed their male name, possibly even have a GRC but who acknowledge they are men, who admit it is impossible to change the sex you were born with, that was determined at conception, they wouldn't be able to join. Even if they're lonely.

EyesOpening · 11/08/2025 15:03

I just thought I'd have a read through of their policy again, two more things I've now spotted.
Firstly, again they state

"3. Objectives
The objectives of this policy are to:

  • Highlight and celebrate the diverse membership of the WI, and reach out to all women.
  • Promote inclusion so that the WI is a space for all women with no barriers to membership."
(my bold)

Then they say:

"Being a transgender woman is a protected characteristic (gender reassignment) under the Equality Act 2010."

since I've just read BoN's latest letter, to M&S, I think this might also be disputed, she wrote:

"During the passage of the Equality Bill, several attempts were made to amend the protected characteristic of "Gender Reassignment" to "Gender Identity". All were rejected by Parliament. The Response to Consultation made it clear that protection was intended exclusively for people with a psychiatric diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and not for any wider group. "We do not consider it appropriate to provide a person who presents themselves temporarily in other than their birth gender with the same protection against discrimination that is available to a person with gender dysphoria." (Response to Consultation 9.42)"

https://x.com/baroness_nichol/status/1954845229217157307?

https://x.com/baroness_nichol/status/1954845229217157307

Canijustsayonething · 11/08/2025 15:25

IDareSay · 09/08/2025 11:40

This is just 'women as support humans' again isn't it? Just like in prisons.

Exactly how I felt reading that list of 'transwomen feel X' 'transwomen feel Y' 'transwomen feel Z'....boo-bloody-hoo...oh ok then, women feel A, B and C but we'll put those feelings aside to asuage 'menz feelz' shall we. No we fucking well won't. God this makes me so bloody angry.

murasaki · 11/08/2025 15:31

lcakethereforeIam · 11/08/2025 14:48

So transwomen, actual transwomen, who've had all the ops, wear the clothes, slather on the make-up, tilt the head, killed their male name, possibly even have a GRC but who acknowledge they are men, who admit it is impossible to change the sex you were born with, that was determined at conception, they wouldn't be able to join. Even if they're lonely.

It would seem not. So Yardley out, Upton in. And I know which I'd rather spend time with if I had to.

Their argument is frankly bollocks. Like the bollocks they are happy to let in.

FarriersGirl · 11/08/2025 15:43

Baroness Nicholson has a fantastic turn of phrase that cuts to the core of the issue. It is interesting that gender reassignment was effectively tethered to a psychiatric diagnosis of gender dysphoria. I think that probably applies to a small minority of the trans community.

Another2Cats · 12/08/2025 06:17

PencilsInSpace · 11/08/2025 11:35

(i) Trans women grow up feeling that they are truly female, but are generally excluded by girls and women, or from activities for girls and women.

...

(b) Arising from the above, trans women have needs connected to their protected characteristics. These needs include:

(i) accessing environments where they can feel included among other people living with the same gender as them; and

This is a disgusting argument. I feel sick.

They are blatantly arguing for women to be used as a resource to meet the 'needs' of tw. We already knew that's what it's all, always been about but I don't think I've ever heard them say the quiet part this loudly before.

They do this by first assuming that all their members 'live with' a 'gender' - i.e. that they do not have the protected characteristic of gender critical belief. Then on the basis of that assumption they argue that it is proportionate for WI to get their members to make tw 'feel included'.

But they know most women have at least to some extent GC beliefs because they say tw 'are generally excluded by girls and women'

Their constitution says:

All women who are interested in the values and purposes of the Women’s Institute organisation may join, no matter what their views on religion or politics may be.

So they can't exclude women with GC beliefs and this 'Membership Criterion' would appear to go against their constitution:

“WI members choose to associate with each other on the basis that they welcome and include anyone who lives as a woman, whatever their recorded sex at birth (“the Membership Criterion”).”

Is this actually written down anywhere that members have to sign or is it something they made up for their defence?

Even if women with GC beliefs were a minority, the constitution says:

This does not prevent WIs from concerning themselves with matters of political and religious significance, provided the views and rights of minorities are respected.

I can't see how they could argue they've done that.

Forstater seems to have completely passed them by.

“WI members choose to associate with each other on the basis that they welcome and include anyone who lives as a woman, whatever their recorded sex at birth (“the Membership Criterion”).”

Is this actually written down anywhere that members have to sign or is it something they made up for their defence?

It's contained in their EDI Policy. However, that policy isn't referenced by the constitution in any way. The constitution simply says all women.

OP posts: