Inappropriate comments at work - help me explain why

[Batgin]

posting here as I know how articulate this part of mumsnet can be on feminist issues and I need some help. A older male colleague has a habit of making comments that make me uncomfortable, think comments to do with training your wife,telling me coming back from maternity as I was asking questions that 'this is why women shouldn't come back from maternity leave' etc.

I have a meeting today with HR to talk about him introducing himself as 'a prostitute of the IT world', as he is a consultant. This was in a meeting I was the only woman in, and I work in an office where it is 90% men.

Please can you help me articulate why these comments make me so uncomfortable and aren't ok for a work environment.

Can those of you who want to have whatabouterry discussions about what words mean start your own thread.

The OP has asked for advice. If you dont have any then there is no need to comment.

It is enough that the OP, experiences it as sexism.

The trouble is that this person has obviously not been challenged in the past (Or even applauded by others).

The ASAS leaflet feels a good start, but maybe as the whole HR set up is a bit new, might be better to just start with how you are made to feel uncomfortable, undermined, insulted by his sexism.

(Does he have direct contact with clients, and if so does to talk like this outside of his work group?)

And get HR to at the very least agree that they will review incidences that you can compile.

But also, maybe HR / management need to do something proactive, along the lines of that they are aware they are a male dominiated work force, but want to ensure that the work place is welcoming to women. Which means men having to realise that "banter" they might indulge in in an all male social event is not acceptable at work.

And for those who aren't aware it is sexism to make derogatory and dismissive remarks about someone because of their sex. It is discrimination ie they are breaching the EA.

Thank you for everyone who gave advice. To those saying it's 'only two comments' - it's not only two comments, it is the pattern of behavior, regular comments like these examples, the way that he refuses to include me in meetings I should be in, the way he doesn't value my work and doesn't listen to anyone who isn't male (I am not the only person who has said this), the way it seems he has zero respect for me and actually seems to disapprove of me being in the position I am, the way he seems to view me a lesser because I don't have a penis, he is someone who makes jokes about how women are hormonal and irrational, if they are irritated it must be 'that time of month', I could go on and on.

When I was younger, I too just put up with this, tried to prove people like that wrong, not rock the boat, take it is 'just a joke' etc - however as I am getting older, the less I feel like just 'putting up' with this as women are taught to do.

Can you get other female staff to report him doing the same?

the way that he refuses to include me in meetings
This is actionable on its own as it is disrupting the business. You are being paid to be in the meeting and contribute to them.
I would try list the meetings you were excluded from and point out where the impact your role but that should be via your manager as he is steping on your managers authority and messing with their KIP.

And what do you think would happen if you started to push back?
Pointing out he is being rude / unprofessional etc?

I agree. The fact that he was already doing this 4 years ago just goes to prove that it is an attitude, not just banter.

OP, for me the comment of "prostitute of the IT world" comes across differently than it would otherwise specifically because of the other comments that he has already made.

He seems like a sexist, which would be his own business if he kept it to himself, but he is essentially making comments that undermine the professional ability of women, including you and other women in your workplace. That's not ok.

In light of that the comment about prostitutes seems to connect to an overall view of women as demeaned.

I would probably concentrate mostly on the comments undermining professionalism, because I think it is easier to point at those and say, this is a problem for me and also for the company in the workplace. I might bring the other comment into it as well, but it would depend on whether I thought it would be well recieved, or distract from the rest of the complaint. If I did bring it up I would probably point to it as ill judged and another example of not having appropriate boundaries. I might stay away from it being creepy, as that is a little subjective.

Also - I would make a list of the issues, and include especially the ones that show a pattern of behaviour, and which are either directly inappropriate or undemine workplace professionalism. Better if they can't be simply denied by this guy, that is more difficult for HR to deal with.

In general, I think it helps to think, how will HR be able to deal with this complaint, what courses of action will be open to them, what will their responsibilities be to me and to the person I am complaining about. The simpler you can make it for them the better.

If you work at Red Hat, as your name suggests, I suspect that you've got used to the extremely toxic and misogynist nature of tech working environments, in particular the FLOSS communities, and have possibly even internalised some of the attitudes expressed by your male colleagues.

I don't not know what Red Hat is! Off to Google!

Redhat is a flavour of the Linux operating system, plus a big tech organisation. Linux/Unix systems administration tends to be very male dominated. I've spent much of my career as literally the only woman in the room.

I've spent much of my career as literally the only woman in the room.

Same. Yet the first six programmers of the first electronic computer, the ENIAC, were all women.

I think I'd just say something like "I'm concerned that Dave regularly makes sexist comments. (List your examples). I don't think this contributes to a culture where women are treated with respect."
Its then over to them to decide whether his behaviour contravenes the dignity at work or equalities policies. Personally I think a prudent employer would tell him to rein it in. Given the new preventative duty on employers regarding harassment they will likely want it nipped in the bud if they've any sense.

This is a strange hill to die on.

No it’s not a strange hill to die on
I can only assume the poster who said that doesn’t work and /or thinks women shouldn’t work either.

I would address that type of behaviour at source OP, it would be smashed down on the second any of those utterances came out of his mouth. The floor would be wiped relentlessly with him. But I am approaching retirement and am pretty senior, so I suppose I feel more confident to tackle it outright.

Assumption is the mother of all f**k ups.

I work in a male dominated environment and have lasted over 30 years. I don’t internalise anything but I pick my battles. Making yourself unlikeable will negatively impact on your promotion prospects. Sorry to be blunt but as you go along/get older it’s more and more about that - and we wims are at a disadvantage already. So If you’d rather not work with this guy then maybe just ask to move teams again. Don’t make it a “woman thing” and instead just say you struggle to work with him and give (relevant) examples of poor performance. Calling out his attitude is unlikely to have any impact esp if he’s a consultant rather than an employee and the most likely impact will be to create a negative impression about you. Don’t put up with it but find a diplomatic route around would be my summary - easier said than done tho!

@TheBeaTgoeson1ok very good, I think something like dadsnet is probably a better fit for you

it tends to be very subtle like talking over women, but not the guys, ignoring points made by women but listening if they are backed by another guy, not including me in meetings or involving me

I would not involve HR over these kinds of things - it would come across as petty, you would be seen as over-sensitive, and each event would have plausible deniability.
e.g. "in meeting X on Y date and time, person A talked over me, then when I made a point later person B repeated it as if it was his own idea".
Person A and Person B would just claim you were mistaken, they had misheard, you had misheard, they hadn't intended to ignore you but it was a busy meeting with lots of people talking, etc.
There is no way HR can tackle this. You have to learn to stand up for yourself.

When Person A starts talking over you, you say in a slightly louder voice "If I could just finish", or "I haven't finished speaking" and then most importantly carry on speaking, don't pause or stop to wait for approval to carry on.
When Person B repeats your idea, you say "thanks for summarising my point, can I just add...".

Of course if it is explicit and overtly sexual comments, you complain to HR, or even better collect several examples, with notes you made at the time and preferably with witnesses.