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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
MatronPomfrey · 19/07/2025 20:03

Wonder what the split between the male non/binaries and female non-binaries is?

OneChicHazelHedgehog · 19/07/2025 20:58

MatronPomfrey · 19/07/2025 20:03

Wonder what the split between the male non/binaries and female non-binaries is?

0.6

ErrolTheDragon · 19/07/2025 21:13

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 19/07/2025 18:06

It could just be because they're Scottish mind. 😂

(Only joking Wales loves you Scotland 😍)

I'd put the icon of my flag up but MN does have the Welsh flag 😡, it's got all the other flags though, which seems a bit racists or bigoted or some other victim thing.

It’s got the dragon! Dragon

NameChangedOfc · 19/07/2025 21:32

Quick, Sherlock, we have a mystery here...

😑

GermaineBloodyGreer · 19/07/2025 22:01

suggestionsplease1 · 19/07/2025 17:11

Well, quite simply, the people who show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards LGB populations are also very likely to be those that show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards trans populations, because those prejudices tend to stem from similar underlying beliefs about gender roles and expectations, and a discomfort with those who deviate from those norms.

They're really not bothering to stop and enquire if a person happens to be T or LGB

I disagree.

The issue in your initial post is that you are hitching the non-binary wagon to the legitimate mental distress of gay men and lesbians. It reads as tactical laundering and opportunistic co-opting of a distinct struggle.

Homophobia (targeting people for their immutable, sex-based orientation) is fundamentally different from scepticism or mockery directed at individuals announcing a personal identity based on clothing, personality, or vague discontent with gender stereotypes. The former is rooted in material reality and centuries of persecution, whilst the latter is a contemporary aesthetic ideology, adopted voluntarily and maintained through performance and declaration. These experiences are simply not the same. 'Non-binary' is a self-ascribed label, not an innate or inescapable condition. The so-called unsupportive environments non-binary people may encounter are simply not on par with the entrenched hostility that gay men and women have historically had to navigate.

Failing to support gay and lesbian people has meant punishing them for what they cannot change. It's unquestionably a societal moral failing.
Refusing to endorse non-binary identity claims is not in the same category, and pretending otherwise trivialises the real thing. It's akin to a Scientologist claiming to be oppressed because nobody around them believes nor takes the threat of Xenu seriously.

It's disingenuous (and frankly lazy) to generalise those who are critical of non-binary identities as de facto homophobes. You're welcome to argue the perceived hardships of non-binary people, but do so under their own placard, not by grafting their cause onto a history that is not theirs.

FingleGlen · 19/07/2025 22:29

I think there was a phenomena discussed in another thread about conflation of correlation and causation, leading to the coined headline, "wet streets cause rain" .

I was just reminded of that....

Gardeninging · 19/07/2025 22:54

OneChicHazelHedgehog · 19/07/2025 20:58

0.6

🤣 same as the human population.

It's a bit like "Newsflash!"
Goths and extreme body modification addicts have underlying mental health issues!
Colour me surprised.

TomPinch · 19/07/2025 23:05

If you can't conform to the stereotypes of masculinity and femininity that society imposes on you, you're going to feel bad. It's very oppressive, not being able to fit in.

The obvious right answer is remove the stereotypes, and make it clear those people they are just fine as they are.

The obviously wrong answer is to tell them that they're something other than their biological sex. Yet that's the path that's been chosen. So much time has been wasted and harm done by this bad choice.

Enough4me · 19/07/2025 23:09

Well it's unusual to disbelieve the very being that you happen to be. It has to take an incredible mental delusion leap.

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 00:29

BabyCatFace · 19/07/2025 17:20

How do you account for gender critical lesbians, gay and bisexual people?

Are you implying that gender critical LGB people ( or straight people) would automatically be prejudiced in their attitude or behaviour towards trans people?

Why would you imply that?

ErrolTheDragon · 20/07/2025 00:37

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 00:29

Are you implying that gender critical LGB people ( or straight people) would automatically be prejudiced in their attitude or behaviour towards trans people?

Why would you imply that?

She implied no such thing.

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 01:14

ErrolTheDragon · 20/07/2025 00:37

She implied no such thing.

On the contrary, that poster's response indicated an acceptance of my own point about general prejudicial attitudes / behaviours but a desire to distinguish those expressed by LBG / non LGB populations.

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 01:20

GermaineBloodyGreer · 19/07/2025 22:01

I disagree.

The issue in your initial post is that you are hitching the non-binary wagon to the legitimate mental distress of gay men and lesbians. It reads as tactical laundering and opportunistic co-opting of a distinct struggle.

Homophobia (targeting people for their immutable, sex-based orientation) is fundamentally different from scepticism or mockery directed at individuals announcing a personal identity based on clothing, personality, or vague discontent with gender stereotypes. The former is rooted in material reality and centuries of persecution, whilst the latter is a contemporary aesthetic ideology, adopted voluntarily and maintained through performance and declaration. These experiences are simply not the same. 'Non-binary' is a self-ascribed label, not an innate or inescapable condition. The so-called unsupportive environments non-binary people may encounter are simply not on par with the entrenched hostility that gay men and women have historically had to navigate.

Failing to support gay and lesbian people has meant punishing them for what they cannot change. It's unquestionably a societal moral failing.
Refusing to endorse non-binary identity claims is not in the same category, and pretending otherwise trivialises the real thing. It's akin to a Scientologist claiming to be oppressed because nobody around them believes nor takes the threat of Xenu seriously.

It's disingenuous (and frankly lazy) to generalise those who are critical of non-binary identities as de facto homophobes. You're welcome to argue the perceived hardships of non-binary people, but do so under their own placard, not by grafting their cause onto a history that is not theirs.

Well you can disagree all you like, but maybe look up the studies covering this are.

But kudos, I can see the gender critical movement now have a Judith Butler if their very own. 😁

GermaineBloodyGreer · 20/07/2025 05:17

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 01:20

Well you can disagree all you like, but maybe look up the studies covering this are.

But kudos, I can see the gender critical movement now have a Judith Butler if their very own. 😁

Studies of what, exactly? That critics of non-binary identities are predominately homophobic? If you have such a study, link it and I'd be happy to look it over, but I rather suspect you don't. Based on your previous contributions to this thread, I imagine you would link to research citing generalised 'LGBTQ+' discrimination as a monolith, with no breakdown of how prejudice manifests different across categories, specifically (in this case) non-binary.

But alas: when substance fails, there's always sarcasm and emojis. So well done on that front.

And as for the Judith Butler comparison, I suppose if one uses more than monosyllables and doesn't pre-chew their reasoning, it starts to look like sorcery.

Annoyedone · 20/07/2025 05:18

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 00:29

Are you implying that gender critical LGB people ( or straight people) would automatically be prejudiced in their attitude or behaviour towards trans people?

Why would you imply that?

Have a coffee and try reading the post again. It might help. 😉

cariadlet · 20/07/2025 05:58

ErrolTheDragon · 19/07/2025 16:44

Whereas if you rely on facts it’s a lower percentage.Grin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_(title)

(sorry that’s one of my favourite pieces of pedantry)

I love that! Will definitely be using it. Thanks

Helleofabore · 20/07/2025 06:14

GermaineBloodyGreer · 19/07/2025 22:01

I disagree.

The issue in your initial post is that you are hitching the non-binary wagon to the legitimate mental distress of gay men and lesbians. It reads as tactical laundering and opportunistic co-opting of a distinct struggle.

Homophobia (targeting people for their immutable, sex-based orientation) is fundamentally different from scepticism or mockery directed at individuals announcing a personal identity based on clothing, personality, or vague discontent with gender stereotypes. The former is rooted in material reality and centuries of persecution, whilst the latter is a contemporary aesthetic ideology, adopted voluntarily and maintained through performance and declaration. These experiences are simply not the same. 'Non-binary' is a self-ascribed label, not an innate or inescapable condition. The so-called unsupportive environments non-binary people may encounter are simply not on par with the entrenched hostility that gay men and women have historically had to navigate.

Failing to support gay and lesbian people has meant punishing them for what they cannot change. It's unquestionably a societal moral failing.
Refusing to endorse non-binary identity claims is not in the same category, and pretending otherwise trivialises the real thing. It's akin to a Scientologist claiming to be oppressed because nobody around them believes nor takes the threat of Xenu seriously.

It's disingenuous (and frankly lazy) to generalise those who are critical of non-binary identities as de facto homophobes. You're welcome to argue the perceived hardships of non-binary people, but do so under their own placard, not by grafting their cause onto a history that is not theirs.

Indeed Germaine.

As we often point out, homosexual and gay people were also campaigning for equal access to opportunities that people that were heterosexual took for granted. Otherwise, there was no other demand of society. Sexual orientation is, of course, materially real based on a response to attraction.

When someone who has the trangender identity of non-binary is interacting with society there is the demand to act as if society and individuals share this group’s philosophical belief. Not just support the group to have the belief, but society has been demanded to change language and to act as if the belief is based on material reality when it will never be.

The needs of the two groups are not comparable, yet there will be the constant denial of posts that point this out. Because the forces teaming is needed by those under the group with transgender identities.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 20/07/2025 06:16

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 01:20

Well you can disagree all you like, but maybe look up the studies covering this are.

But kudos, I can see the gender critical movement now have a Judith Butler if their very own. 😁

When did Judith Butler write anything so clear, concise and understandable, when you talking sense you don’t need to hide behind impenetrable prose or jargon laden gobbledegook. The harder you have to work to find meaning the more there is no meaning to find.

Helleofabore · 20/07/2025 06:21

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 20/07/2025 06:16

When did Judith Butler write anything so clear, concise and understandable, when you talking sense you don’t need to hide behind impenetrable prose or jargon laden gobbledegook. The harder you have to work to find meaning the more there is no meaning to find.

It was just a lazy snide remark. But if Suggestions found the post impenetrable, in concept and in communication, that might explain a great many things.

PauliString · 20/07/2025 06:44

Helleofabore · 20/07/2025 06:21

It was just a lazy snide remark. But if Suggestions found the post impenetrable, in concept and in communication, that might explain a great many things.

Or worse, finds Judith Butler concise and informative?

Tigresswoods · 20/07/2025 06:46

TomPinch · 19/07/2025 23:05

If you can't conform to the stereotypes of masculinity and femininity that society imposes on you, you're going to feel bad. It's very oppressive, not being able to fit in.

The obvious right answer is remove the stereotypes, and make it clear those people they are just fine as they are.

The obviously wrong answer is to tell them that they're something other than their biological sex. Yet that's the path that's been chosen. So much time has been wasted and harm done by this bad choice.

Summed it up perfectly!!!!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/07/2025 06:47

Perfect example of correlation, not causation.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/07/2025 06:49

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 01:20

Well you can disagree all you like, but maybe look up the studies covering this are.

But kudos, I can see the gender critical movement now have a Judith Butler if their very own. 😁

Lol, gender critical feminism is at its heart an anti Butlerian flapdoodle movement.

Silvertulips · 20/07/2025 06:55

DD has a group of friends that ‘identified as…’

Its all they talked about out

Not music, films, hobbies, hair, clothes, tv shows - literally nothing else.

Maybe they need to look into this obsession with their own identity?

If anything, this all about me culture is killing society.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/07/2025 07:10

Silvertulips · 20/07/2025 06:55

DD has a group of friends that ‘identified as…’

Its all they talked about out

Not music, films, hobbies, hair, clothes, tv shows - literally nothing else.

Maybe they need to look into this obsession with their own identity?

If anything, this all about me culture is killing society.

Absolutely, it is the most boring subculture in history.

Between this generation obsessed with their own identities (which are about as far from individual and challenging of gender norms as it is possible to get), ideological capture of the arts (cancelling of gender critical artists, new works being sanitised by sensitivity readers etc) and the rise of AI, we are currently heading for very bad times for human innovation and creativity.