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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we be "Sex realist" now? Not "Gender critical"?

143 replies

DiamondThrone · 13/07/2025 17:16

I feel like we've been boxed into a corner. Being defined by "gender", when what we are actuall defined by is "sex", not womany feels.

OP posts:
GallantKumquat · 15/07/2025 23:24

ArabellaScott · 15/07/2025 11:22

Thanks, that's really useful. I was considering reading one of Butler's books the other day for better context, but perhaps something that sites it within other feminist discourse might be more productive and less infuriating.

Could you rec a good, relatively objective text?

Off the top of my head... In terms of getting the gist of Butler's theory and its implications in GI Kathleen Stock’s "Material Girl" is excellent. To understand Butler's theory in the context of postmodern thought Helen Pluckrose's Cynical Theory covers a lot of ground. Andrew Doyle talks about the impact of postmodernism on politics especially in respect to woke and DEI, and talks a bit about Butler in his book "The New Puritans". Joyce also mentions Butler in "Trans".

WallaceinAnderland · 15/07/2025 23:26

DiamondThrone · 14/07/2025 21:04

Glad to hear it. But I am sensing a new way of doing it. Calling themselves "biological women".Saying their DNA changes. That their blood changes gender with hormones.

Even if you don't agree with me, just keep an ear open for it.

None of this is new. India Willoughby was calling himself a 'cis woman', said he had a cervix, etc. It's a load of nonsense.

GallantKumquat · 15/07/2025 23:30

OldCrone · 15/07/2025 11:33

I just used google's ngram to see what terms have been used historically, and this backs up what you've said. From the 60s until the early 80s, 'sex stereotype' was the preferred term, then it switched to 'gender stereotype'. So for most of my adult life, 'gender stereotype' has been more commonly used (which is why I viewed it as the standard term). People seem to have become much more squeamish about using the word 'sex' in this sort of context.

I actually thought of doing this to verify my claim, but laziness won out. 😳 Glad to see MN keeping me honest. 😅

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 09:02

WallaceinAnderland · 15/07/2025 23:26

None of this is new. India Willoughby was calling himself a 'cis woman', said he had a cervix, etc. It's a load of nonsense.

But "cis" is not "biological".

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WaitedBlankey · 16/07/2025 09:21

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 09:02

But "cis" is not "biological".

Yes, he’s been saying that for years too. This isn’t new, @DiamondThrone , it’s just new to you.

I’m happy to be gender critical as a 2nd wave feminist. Sex fixed, gender changes from society to society. It is an externally imposed system of demands, expectations, stereotypes and prohibitions. Dismantling gender norms is part of feminism to me.

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 10:15

WaitedBlankey · 16/07/2025 09:21

Yes, he’s been saying that for years too. This isn’t new, @DiamondThrone , it’s just new to you.

I’m happy to be gender critical as a 2nd wave feminist. Sex fixed, gender changes from society to society. It is an externally imposed system of demands, expectations, stereotypes and prohibitions. Dismantling gender norms is part of feminism to me.

Thank you for being so patronising.

My point was not about one TRA - it was about their increasing tactic of calling themselves/claiming "biological" women. Which is a new tactic, since the Supreme Court ruling.

OP posts:
Lemonz · 16/07/2025 10:48

It certainly does not date from the Supreme Court ruling. The prevailing arguments vacillate between "sex is very complicated and with hormone treatment men can become biological women" and "of course we never said that people can literally change sex", depending on what they are responding to and the current climate, but the claims that men are biological women go back many years unfortunately.

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 12:29

Really? They used the term "biological woman" a lot, did they?

OP posts:
POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 16/07/2025 12:32

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 10:15

Thank you for being so patronising.

My point was not about one TRA - it was about their increasing tactic of calling themselves/claiming "biological" women. Which is a new tactic, since the Supreme Court ruling.

"Which is a new tactic, since the Supreme Court ruling."

Please listen because you are flogging a dead horse:

IT. IS. NOT. A. NEW. TACTIC. SINCE. THE. SUPREME. COURT. RULING.

"They" have been saying this since before Reddit existed and before the internet existed.

Yes, it might well be the latest ridiculous argument that a bunch of dweebs on Reddit are pulling out of their arses but honestly, it is not at all surprising because it is not new in the slightest.

Honestly, this is no big surprise that will catch us all off guard. They have a whole rotting rucksack of mad "science" notions that they unearth and fling about from time to time.

This video by Mr Menno was uploaded in 2023 and includes an example of the delusion, or "tactic", from lawyer Robin "Somatically Female" White, as well as India Willoughby and other men claiming that they are female.

Also, it is a funny video 😂

Somatically Female (He's a man!) 🎶

ETA: Note the Cyclist using a ludicrous argument to claim that he is "biologically female". These ridiculous claims are depressingly familiar.

WallaceinAnderland · 16/07/2025 12:39

Dr Upton said in court that he was a woman and not a robot so therefore he was a biological woman.

This is not new. They have been saying stuff like this for years.

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 13:56

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 16/07/2025 12:32

"Which is a new tactic, since the Supreme Court ruling."

Please listen because you are flogging a dead horse:

IT. IS. NOT. A. NEW. TACTIC. SINCE. THE. SUPREME. COURT. RULING.

"They" have been saying this since before Reddit existed and before the internet existed.

Yes, it might well be the latest ridiculous argument that a bunch of dweebs on Reddit are pulling out of their arses but honestly, it is not at all surprising because it is not new in the slightest.

Honestly, this is no big surprise that will catch us all off guard. They have a whole rotting rucksack of mad "science" notions that they unearth and fling about from time to time.

This video by Mr Menno was uploaded in 2023 and includes an example of the delusion, or "tactic", from lawyer Robin "Somatically Female" White, as well as India Willoughby and other men claiming that they are female.

Also, it is a funny video 😂

Somatically Female (He's a man!) 🎶

ETA: Note the Cyclist using a ludicrous argument to claim that he is "biologically female". These ridiculous claims are depressingly familiar.

Edited

Was that really necessary? ALL. THE. SHOUTING?

If you don't agree with my position, then I'm sure there will be better informed threads for you to visit. I am interested in discussing things civilly.

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/07/2025 14:09

Maybe read back some of your posts @DiamondThrone and look at how often you've admonished and criticised posterswho've responded to you? Many of us have been involved in this for many years and have tried to explain that what you've suddenly discovered is not new.

WallaceinAnderland · 16/07/2025 14:20

I think we have been observing 'peaking' in real time on this thread. When it hits you it does make a big impact. It's no wonder that OP is incredulous if she is hearing this for the first time.

Imagine going back to the time when we were originally reading about all this but not allowed to talk about it.

I can remember being in a complete panic about it at some points because it did seem that no-one online or in the media was talking sense.

WallaceinAnderland · 16/07/2025 14:21

And it wasn't just media talking nonsense - our own Prime Minister was doing it too!

Youlookgorge · 16/07/2025 14:45

I feel a bit left behind by all of this - so this is my thinking:

Sex is biological and predisposes human to certain things within society (but not entirely), and sex is not something anyone can ever fully change

Gender is largely constructed by the patriarchal society we live in but is becoming more fluid and generally we see this as a good thing right? As in more equality on what men vs woman can do and vice versa

So there are biological men/women and trans women/men, and its fine to define everyone as such?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 16/07/2025 14:57

Youlookgorge · 16/07/2025 14:45

I feel a bit left behind by all of this - so this is my thinking:

Sex is biological and predisposes human to certain things within society (but not entirely), and sex is not something anyone can ever fully change

Gender is largely constructed by the patriarchal society we live in but is becoming more fluid and generally we see this as a good thing right? As in more equality on what men vs woman can do and vice versa

So there are biological men/women and trans women/men, and its fine to define everyone as such?

If rigid gender roles are bad and gender being more fluid (ie less defined and less constrained) is a good thing, can you explain why we even need to label anyone by their gender? Surely the better end goal is for it not to be a thing at all - just sex and personalities?

After all, there's no real reason why pink tutus and not being into football should be especially associated with each other. It's not just the "pink stuff is for girls, blue stuff is for boys" that is arbitrary, but the whole grouping of stuff under pink or blue in the first place.

WaitedBlankey · 16/07/2025 16:11

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 12:29

Really? They used the term "biological woman" a lot, did they?

Yes, they really did. A lot. As you’ve been told by many different people but you keep correcting us or admonishing us that we need to pay attention to this “new tactic” that’s been going on for some years.

Again, it’s not new, it’s just something you yourself hadn’t seen.

ArabellaScott · 16/07/2025 16:17

WallaceinAnderland · 16/07/2025 14:20

I think we have been observing 'peaking' in real time on this thread. When it hits you it does make a big impact. It's no wonder that OP is incredulous if she is hearing this for the first time.

Imagine going back to the time when we were originally reading about all this but not allowed to talk about it.

I can remember being in a complete panic about it at some points because it did seem that no-one online or in the media was talking sense.

Cataclysmic to one's faith in institutions. Government, media, NHS, artists, academics. All coming out with the same startling stuff, and worse, joining in the vociferous attacks on women who dare to question or disagree.

potpourree · 16/07/2025 16:32

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 12:29

Really? They used the term "biological woman" a lot, did they?

Yes, this has been a thing for quite some time.
Presumably they expect us to say "oh ok, you're quite right then"!?

TheKeatingFive · 16/07/2025 16:48

potpourree · 16/07/2025 16:32

Yes, this has been a thing for quite some time.
Presumably they expect us to say "oh ok, you're quite right then"!?

I think it's just an attempt to wear us all down so we eventually shut up

They know we're not that stupid

TheAntiGardener · 16/07/2025 16:49

I’m late to the thread, but count me in as another who thinks GC is perfectly fine as a label. As the Venn diagram on the first page illustrates very clearly, gender is the front on which we diverge from both TRAs and conservatives.

I have no problem with my position being seen first and foremost as a negative stance on gender. I would have a problem being slotted under a banner that could mean different things to different people like sex realism. We are the first to point out that female oppression is sex-based; I’m not keen to adopt a label that could be equally meaningful for those who use biological differences to keep women down.

Nor do I see how using that term opposes those who now say being trans literally means you have the biological sex you claim; they’ll simply say that is reality.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 16/07/2025 22:43

We can define "Gender Critical" however we like in this thread but in terms of protection from discrimination under the Equality Act 2010, "Gender Critical Belief" is defined in UK law.

The reason that it is called "Gender Critical Belief" is because that is the term Maya Forstater used in her Witness Statement when taking her case for unfair discrimination to an Employment Tribunal. Perhaps Maya used this term because it was already widely used to contrast with what Maya refers to as "Gender Identity Belief", which she lacks?

I like some of the other terms that have been suggested in this thread. In so far as their meanings coincide exactly with how "Gender Critical Belief" is defined in law we could just say, "X Belief, also known as Gender Critical Belief".

However, to use very different definitions of "Gender Critical Belief" could cause confusion and possibly difficulties because it is a particular definition of "Gender Critical Belief" that is a protected belief under the EA2010.

I think these are the most relevant parts of Maya's Witness Statement and the Employment Appeal Tribunal:

Witness Statement - On the question of belief
In the case of MS MAYA FORSTATER and CGD Europe -and- CGD EUROPE (1) CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT (2) MASOOD AHMED (3) at the London Central Employment Tribunal
23 Oct 2019

(Extracts: some bolding as in the original, some bolding mine)

  1. This statement sets out my underlying belief (“gender critical belief”) as well as the belief that some people subscribe to but which I do not share (“gender identity belief”).

GENDER CRITICAL BELIEF

  1. As outlined in paragraph 67 of the Amended Particulars of my Claim, I believe the following:

(A) “Sex” is a material reality which should not be conflated with “gender” or “gender identity”.

(B) Being female is an immutable biological fact, not a feeling or an identity.

(C) Sex matters.

(D) In particular it is important it is important to be able to talk about sex in order to take action against the discrimination, violence and oppression that still affect women and girls because they were born female.

GENDER IDENTITY BELIEF

Gender identity belief is a system of belief about sex and gender which I do not share

(Maya details the characteristics of this belief - see link)

  1. I do not share this belief. But I believe it meets the conditions for being a protected belief.

  2. It satisfies the criteria in Grainger v Nicholson:

(1) It is genuinely held

(See link for details)

(2) It is a belief and not an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available

(See link for details)

(3) It is a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour.

(See link for details)

(4) It demonstrates cogency, seriousness, cohesion, and importance

(See link for details)

(5) It is worthy of respect in a democratic society, is compatible with human dignity and fundamental rights of others.

(See link for details)

  1. People who believe that everyone has an internal gender identity, and that this, rather than facts about their body, is what makes them male or female, may feel they themselves should therefore be comfortable undressing, washing, receiving personal care, being intimately searched or sharing sleeping accommodation with people of the opposite sex who declare that they have the same gender identity.

  2. What I believe is not worthy of respect is the further belief that others who do not share this belief (including children) should be compelled to pretend that they do share it — for example in practical terms that they must not refer to a person’s actual sex in any circumstance, that they can be compelled to refer to someone with pronouns which relate to the opposite sex than the one they really are, that crimes committed by men should be recorded as being committed by women, that individuals must undress, wash, sleep or receive personal care in “single sex” spaces which include members of the opposite sex, that women escaping or recovering from male violence cannot be given the security of a female only shelter or support service, or that people and organisations should ignore a person’s sex as a risk factor where it is relevant (such as in relation to healthcare, pregnancy or blood donation).

  3. In short, I would argue that the belief in gender identity per se is worthy of respect in a democratic society and does not infringe the rights of others per se. However, where it is taken to a further stage of requiring that everyone else share or pretend to share in this belief, I believe it is not compatible with the rights and freedoms of others, in particular the rights of women and girls.

Conclusion

152. Some people believe that what makes a woman is the fact of female biology (“gender critical belief”) Some people believe it is a sense of innate gender identity (“gender identity belief”).

https://www.forstater.com/on-the-question-of-belief/


EMPLOYMENT APPEAL TRIBUNAL
Appeal No. UKEAT/0105/20/JOJ
Handed down on 10 June 2021

MAYA FORSTATER vs (1) CGD EUROPE (2) CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT (3) MASOOD AHMED
INTERVENORS: (1) INDEX ON CENSORSHIP (2) EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION

(Extracts: some bolding as in the original, some bolding mine)

  1. The Claimant had also put her claim in her ET1 on the alternative basis of a lack of belief. The belief that she did not subscribe to was described by the Tribunal as follows at para 92 of the Judgment:

“...everyone has a gender which may be different to their sex at birth and which effectively trumps sex so that trans men are men and transwomen are women”

  1. We refer to this as the “gender identity belief”. The Claimant accepted that the gender identity belief was a philosophical belief qualifying for protection under s.10, EqA.

Does the Claimant’s belief fall within s.10 EqA?

  1. On a proper application of Grainger V, as analysed above, it seems to us that the only possible conclusion is that the Claimant’s belief does fall within s.10, EqA.

  2. a widely shared belief demands particular care before it can be condemned as being not worthy of respect in a democratic society.

  3. the Claimant’s belief that sex is immutable and binary is, as the Tribunal itself correctly concluded, consistent with the law . . .

  4. Where a belief or a major tenet of it appears to be in accordance with the law of the land, then it is all the more jarring that it should be declared as one not worthy of respect in a democratic society. . . . the position under the common law as to the immutability of sex remains the same; and it would be a matter for Parliament, not a court or tribunal considering whether a belief is protected under s.10, EqA, to declare otherwise.

  5. becoming the acquired gender “for all purposes” within the meaning of GRA does not negate a person’s right to believe, like the Claimant, that as a matter of biology a trans person is still their natal sex.

117. In relation to the preliminary issue of whether the Claimant’s belief falls within s.10, EqA, we substitute a finding that it does.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c1cce1d3bf7f4bd9814e39/Maya_Forstater_v_CGD_Europe_and_others_UKEAT0105_20_JOJ.pdf?ref=forstater.com

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c1cce1d3bf7f4bd9814e39/Maya_Forstater_v_CGD_Europe_and_others_UKEAT0105_20_JOJ.pdf?ref=forstater.com

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 14:46

Well, as it turns out, me and Sandie Peggie's KC agree on the terminology. From today's evidence:

NC Women who are G C / sex realists

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29?reply=145755480&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

OP posts:
NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 17/07/2025 15:20

I'm sex-realist and gender-critical, but I concentrate on making the arguments, rather than labelling myself.

Sex realism is the bare, common sense minimum. Plenty of blokes with dinosaur tendencies are sex realists, but not gender-critical. Some of them are fairly open about subscribing to the older, sexist conception of gender which implies that women's capabilities are determined in a warped, reductive way by their reproductive role.

Sex realism is necessary but not sufficient. I think both terms are useful, because we need to dismantle the notion that gender is worth recording and reporting on. I don't want time, energy and computing power wasted like that. I don't want to spend my life refusing to provide my ‘gender’ on every form I fill in.

I'm not worried that TRAs will succeed in convincing people that someone can change sex (although plenty of men seem to think that a man who is crazy enough to have his penis and testicles removed should be entitled to honorary womanhood - that boundary still needs firm policing). I am worried about the ‘be kind’ brigade asserting that whilst these men can't change sex, their personal, private, inaccessible, unverifiable ‘gender identity’ is equally important, if not more important. They skate over the mountain of objective evidence that there are contexts in which sex matters and females are disadvantaged in order to focus on the perceived tragic destiny of people who claim a trans identity and repeat the ‘most persecuted’ mantra.

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 15:22

Oh, here we are again!

NC It was to stop her expressing her G C /sex realist beliefs

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29?reply=145756244&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

Page 35 | NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29 | Mumsnet

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29?reply=145756244

OP posts: