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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kent council remove trans childrens books from libraries

104 replies

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 04/07/2025 13:12

Just heard this on the radio. Can't see another thread on it. R2 had a delightful quote from a random outraged American-sounding TRA but nothing for balance from the other side, just a secondhand statement from the council. Article slightly more balanced. Hope this becomes more widespread.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6257p2vry3o

Rows of books on shelves. The books are all different colours.

Kent council bans transgender books in children’s library section

KCC says the move came after a "concerned member of the public" contacted them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6257p2vry3o

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5
recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:27

Deadcog · 04/07/2025 17:01

That link doesn’t work. What examples are there in British history of all these trans people? (Genuine question- I can’t think of one).

This link?

https://publicmedievalist.com/transgender-middle-ages/

It works for me when I click my previous comment. The website is public medievalist and the article is called Were There Transgender People in the Middle Ages? .

I can't list examples of people off the top of my head, I'm not a transgender historian. I can't list many examples of known historical gay people off the top of my head but I know they existed cos I've read about them. My point is that I don't think it's bad for kids to read about trans people.

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:27

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:22

Well it seems relevant here because removing books about a type of person is a far cry from wanting policy that protects single sex spaces. Removing books from kids' book selections about trans people seems more along the lines of wanting to stop kids learning that trans people exist, rather than what sex-based policy should be.

No, it's about moving books written for adults, which contain adult themes, from the children's section to the adults' section where they belong.

It's just the same as moving something like erotic fiction or horror fiction out of the children's section.

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:29

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:24

I mean it's wikipedia, it often looks a bit garbled because it's from so many different sources. You can easily click through to any of the individual sources or google anything you find on there to read more well-written articles or books.

I'm not here to write a book myself 😂my point is there is interesting and relevant evidence of trans people and gender expression throughout history and around the world and that I think children should be able to read about that, like they should be able to read about anything as long as it's age appropriate.

You keep talking about 'trans people'. What do you understand this term to mean?

I don't want a link to a wiki page, I want to know what you, personally, understand this term to mean.

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:31

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:27

No, it's about moving books written for adults, which contain adult themes, from the children's section to the adults' section where they belong.

It's just the same as moving something like erotic fiction or horror fiction out of the children's section.

I disagree.

If a book is unsuitable for children, it's unsuitable for children full stop. That's about appropriateness. You can have children's books about gay people and gay history, or fiction kids books including gay characters. You can have the same about trans people. There are many children's history books about different types of people and groups - the key point is that they're written for children and are appropriate for them. It's absurd to suggest that any children's book pertaining to trans people is akin to erotic or horror fiction.

Deadcog · 04/07/2025 17:31

(It was the Wikipedia link that didn’t work for me).

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:33

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:29

You keep talking about 'trans people'. What do you understand this term to mean?

I don't want a link to a wiki page, I want to know what you, personally, understand this term to mean.

I am using the term to mean a person who claims to be a gender different to the sex they were born as.

Shedmistress · 04/07/2025 17:33

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:27

This link?

https://publicmedievalist.com/transgender-middle-ages/

It works for me when I click my previous comment. The website is public medievalist and the article is called Were There Transgender People in the Middle Ages? .

I can't list examples of people off the top of my head, I'm not a transgender historian. I can't list many examples of known historical gay people off the top of my head but I know they existed cos I've read about them. My point is that I don't think it's bad for kids to read about trans people.

That seems to explain medieval transgenderism as:
Women who wanted to do things men wanted to do and who dressed up as men to do so
and
Men who wanted to have anal sex so pretended the men they were having anal sex with were women

Gosh, such gendered transgenderism.

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:35

Shedmistress · 04/07/2025 17:33

That seems to explain medieval transgenderism as:
Women who wanted to do things men wanted to do and who dressed up as men to do so
and
Men who wanted to have anal sex so pretended the men they were having anal sex with were women

Gosh, such gendered transgenderism.

I have a very different reading of that article to you, in that case.

I said in a different comment that I think it's important to acknowledge that historically, many people of both genders would have presented as the opposite gender because of social gender norms at the time, and that that doesn't make them trans.

But that article talks about people who specifically consciously adopted names and clothing of the opposite gender with the intention to live as that gender. That's not the same thing as just being perceived as not conforming to gender stereotypes, that's intentionally wanting to actually be the different gender.

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:37

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:31

I disagree.

If a book is unsuitable for children, it's unsuitable for children full stop. That's about appropriateness. You can have children's books about gay people and gay history, or fiction kids books including gay characters. You can have the same about trans people. There are many children's history books about different types of people and groups - the key point is that they're written for children and are appropriate for them. It's absurd to suggest that any children's book pertaining to trans people is akin to erotic or horror fiction.

The book in question was one written for adults, so the situation is exactly like that for other books with adult themes.

“It follows feedback from a resident who spotted a transgender book aimed at adults in a public display at the entrance of one library in Kent. The book has since been relocated to a section that is unlikely to be visited by children.”

Reform UK Kent County Council leader Linden Kemkaran backs removing trans book from libraries’ children’s sections

Reform UK council leader under fire over trans library book

The new Reform UK leadership at Kent County Council (KCC) is under fire for removing trans books from a library’s children’s section.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/sittingbourne/news/reform-uk-council-leader-under-fire-over-trans-library-book-326683/

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:40

' Life of St. Marinos the Monk. Marinos is an early Christian figure, who has been canonized both in the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. According to tradition, passed down through story, relics, and shrines, Marinos was assigned female at birth but chose to enter a monastery and live as a monk.
As he was contemplating his transition, his father warned him that his body (especially his genitals) would get him in trouble. Yet Marinos responded to this concern by putting on a monk’s habit, which not only covered over his genitals with clothing but covered over any sort of reproductive sexual life with the veil of celibacy. After all, if monks were to be modest and abstain from sexual encounters, what difference did it make what form of genitals he had under his habit? Funny enough, Marinos was ejected from the monastery for a time; he was kicked out not because he had a vagina (this was only discovered after his death) but because it was believed that he possessed a penis—and that he used it to impregnate a local girl. In fact, after the child was born, Marinos was given the boy to raise as his own. At this point, if Marinos’s clothing was merely a disguise, it had long since lost its usefulness. If his identity as a monk, and as a man was not so important, then Marinos could have easily taken off his habit and revealed his genitals to demonstrate his innocence. Yet Marinos held onto his monk’s habit and male identity. He took on the additional role of father, until eventually he was allowed back into the monastery along with his adopted son. In the end, Marinos remained a man, monk, and father until his death all because of the clothing which had allowed him to transition, and which he would not surrender even in moments of danger.
'
This is taken from this book, and doesn't fit either of the two categories you describe. Marinos could have become a nun and lived an almost identical life but was particular about becoming a monk, and also accepted punishment on the grounds of impregnating a woman! Which he couldn't have done because he didn't have a penis. Using he for sake of ease as that's what all these articles use:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SaViaGCeiZIC&pg=PA1&dq=st+marinos&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=st%20marinos&f=false

Holy Women of Byzantium

The ten holy women whose biographies are presented here represent a wide variety of Byzantine female saints: nuns who disguised themselves in male monastic garb; a repentant harlot who withdrew to the desert for forty-seven years of self-imposed isolat...

https://books.google.com/books?id=SaViaGCeiZIC&pg=PA1&dq=st+marinos&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK46Tl_MTdAhUptlkKHXNdBHkQ6AEIMTAB#v=onepage&q=st%20marinos&f=false

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:41

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:33

I am using the term to mean a person who claims to be a gender different to the sex they were born as.

Thanks for replying. One more question: What do you mean by 'claims to be a gender'?

Gender is the set of cultural stereotypes associated with a person's sex. It is imposed from outside. I don't have a concept of 'being a gender'. Can you explain what it means to 'be a gender'? Thanks.

Poynsettia · 04/07/2025 17:41

Hooorayyyy

Shedmistress · 04/07/2025 17:43

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:35

I have a very different reading of that article to you, in that case.

I said in a different comment that I think it's important to acknowledge that historically, many people of both genders would have presented as the opposite gender because of social gender norms at the time, and that that doesn't make them trans.

But that article talks about people who specifically consciously adopted names and clothing of the opposite gender with the intention to live as that gender. That's not the same thing as just being perceived as not conforming to gender stereotypes, that's intentionally wanting to actually be the different gender.

They scoured all the texts since forever and could only find this:

The medieval court case of Eleanor Rykener shows a legal system that is trying to square a person who lives as a woman, and calls herself Eleanor, with other information that leads the court to identify Eleanor as a man named John. In the testimony of this late 14th century London trial, Eleanor is brought into the courts on accusations of sexual misconduct—she was caught in the act performing sex work. However, sex work was often tolerated in London at this time; the problem is not the sex work. The problem is that the court does not know whether or not sodomy was committed.
The court does not know, or rather cannot decide, because they cannot decide whether or not Eleanor is a man or a woman. She gives her name as Eleanor, and presents as a woman to the courts. But after interrogation, she is forced to confess that she once lived in London as a man named John. She tells the story of her transition, and her new work as a seamstress and sex worker. She discusses sleeping with both men and women—from aristocrats to nuns and priests—some of whom offered her pay or presents.
In the end, a verdict is not recorded. Indeed, while the text records both the names “Eleanor” and “John,” it is written in Latin, which allowed for the proceedings to continue without the male or female pronouns frequently required by English or French. The court, it seems, did not want to decide on a pronoun because they were still trying to decide what gender to consider Eleanor. Thus, history is left with a record of a trans woman, and also a record of the conflict which is textbook gender dysphoria: a marked difference between the individual’s expressed/experienced gender, and the gender others would assign to him or her.

What was the reading you took from this then? If it wasn't about how declaring he was a woman was to avoid the accusation of sodomy?

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:44

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:37

The book in question was one written for adults, so the situation is exactly like that for other books with adult themes.

“It follows feedback from a resident who spotted a transgender book aimed at adults in a public display at the entrance of one library in Kent. The book has since been relocated to a section that is unlikely to be visited by children.”

Reform UK Kent County Council leader Linden Kemkaran backs removing trans book from libraries’ children’s sections

I agree with a book aimed at adults being moved to the adult section. I was reading the BBC article which says 'It is unknown how many books are to be removed or how the council will classify transgender-related books.' I don't think that appropriate books that reference or are about trans people need to be removed.

Shedmistress · 04/07/2025 17:46

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:40

' Life of St. Marinos the Monk. Marinos is an early Christian figure, who has been canonized both in the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. According to tradition, passed down through story, relics, and shrines, Marinos was assigned female at birth but chose to enter a monastery and live as a monk.
As he was contemplating his transition, his father warned him that his body (especially his genitals) would get him in trouble. Yet Marinos responded to this concern by putting on a monk’s habit, which not only covered over his genitals with clothing but covered over any sort of reproductive sexual life with the veil of celibacy. After all, if monks were to be modest and abstain from sexual encounters, what difference did it make what form of genitals he had under his habit? Funny enough, Marinos was ejected from the monastery for a time; he was kicked out not because he had a vagina (this was only discovered after his death) but because it was believed that he possessed a penis—and that he used it to impregnate a local girl. In fact, after the child was born, Marinos was given the boy to raise as his own. At this point, if Marinos’s clothing was merely a disguise, it had long since lost its usefulness. If his identity as a monk, and as a man was not so important, then Marinos could have easily taken off his habit and revealed his genitals to demonstrate his innocence. Yet Marinos held onto his monk’s habit and male identity. He took on the additional role of father, until eventually he was allowed back into the monastery along with his adopted son. In the end, Marinos remained a man, monk, and father until his death all because of the clothing which had allowed him to transition, and which he would not surrender even in moments of danger.
'
This is taken from this book, and doesn't fit either of the two categories you describe. Marinos could have become a nun and lived an almost identical life but was particular about becoming a monk, and also accepted punishment on the grounds of impregnating a woman! Which he couldn't have done because he didn't have a penis. Using he for sake of ease as that's what all these articles use:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SaViaGCeiZIC&pg=PA1&dq=st+marinos&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=st%20marinos&f=false

She wasn't assigned female at birth, she was a woman who wanted to go into the priesthood. As I stated earlier, women who are historically revisioned as 'trans men' were just wanting to do stuff women were not allowed to do. It completely fits the two categories. Are you even reading the same words as you are copying and pasting on the screen?

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:47

Shedmistress · 04/07/2025 17:43

They scoured all the texts since forever and could only find this:

The medieval court case of Eleanor Rykener shows a legal system that is trying to square a person who lives as a woman, and calls herself Eleanor, with other information that leads the court to identify Eleanor as a man named John. In the testimony of this late 14th century London trial, Eleanor is brought into the courts on accusations of sexual misconduct—she was caught in the act performing sex work. However, sex work was often tolerated in London at this time; the problem is not the sex work. The problem is that the court does not know whether or not sodomy was committed.
The court does not know, or rather cannot decide, because they cannot decide whether or not Eleanor is a man or a woman. She gives her name as Eleanor, and presents as a woman to the courts. But after interrogation, she is forced to confess that she once lived in London as a man named John. She tells the story of her transition, and her new work as a seamstress and sex worker. She discusses sleeping with both men and women—from aristocrats to nuns and priests—some of whom offered her pay or presents.
In the end, a verdict is not recorded. Indeed, while the text records both the names “Eleanor” and “John,” it is written in Latin, which allowed for the proceedings to continue without the male or female pronouns frequently required by English or French. The court, it seems, did not want to decide on a pronoun because they were still trying to decide what gender to consider Eleanor. Thus, history is left with a record of a trans woman, and also a record of the conflict which is textbook gender dysphoria: a marked difference between the individual’s expressed/experienced gender, and the gender others would assign to him or her.

What was the reading you took from this then? If it wasn't about how declaring he was a woman was to avoid the accusation of sodomy?

I think it's you who is assuming that the motivation was to avoid accusations of sodomy. This person slept with men and women, and also worked as a sewist, not only a sex worker.

Also it's inaccurate to say "they scoured all the texts since forever and could only find this". I've put so many links here to so many different things, and all have been criticised as imperfect. The information in them is what matters, though, which is that trans people, which we can all agree on existing otherwise there would be no debate (the validity of transness as an identity is another matter), have existed all around the world and have cropped up in historical record very far back in history.

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:48

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:44

I agree with a book aimed at adults being moved to the adult section. I was reading the BBC article which says 'It is unknown how many books are to be removed or how the council will classify transgender-related books.' I don't think that appropriate books that reference or are about trans people need to be removed.

Don't rely on the BBC. It's staffed by genderists who are economical with the truth.

Shedmistress · 04/07/2025 17:49

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:47

I think it's you who is assuming that the motivation was to avoid accusations of sodomy. This person slept with men and women, and also worked as a sewist, not only a sex worker.

Also it's inaccurate to say "they scoured all the texts since forever and could only find this". I've put so many links here to so many different things, and all have been criticised as imperfect. The information in them is what matters, though, which is that trans people, which we can all agree on existing otherwise there would be no debate (the validity of transness as an identity is another matter), have existed all around the world and have cropped up in historical record very far back in history.

Oh yah I went back in time and wrote this just to confuse you.

'The problem is that the court does not know whether or not sodomy was committed.'

Silly me. It slipped my mind.

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:51

Shedmistress · 04/07/2025 17:46

She wasn't assigned female at birth, she was a woman who wanted to go into the priesthood. As I stated earlier, women who are historically revisioned as 'trans men' were just wanting to do stuff women were not allowed to do. It completely fits the two categories. Are you even reading the same words as you are copying and pasting on the screen?

As far as I understand it, the same order (Byzantine) also had nuns, so she could have become a nun instead - but chose monkhood?

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:52

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:48

Don't rely on the BBC. It's staffed by genderists who are economical with the truth.

The BBC were quoting the library who said they didn't yet know how many books they were going to remove.

SlippySausage · 04/07/2025 17:52

zerofeeling · 04/07/2025 16:45

😂

There are loads of books about the Chevalier d'Éon - (more 18th century than Napoleonic). I disagree with modern gender/trans ideology, but I do think it is reductive not to acknowledge that individuals throughout history have flaunted gender expectations. However, I am also wary of attempts to automatically recast non-gender conforming women as 'trans' in the modern sense just because they defied the super restrictive gender expectations of some historical periods.

MyQuirkyTraybake · 04/07/2025 17:55

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 16:03

Policy and protection of single sex spaces is one thing, but trans people have always existed. Records of them go back centuries and centuries, and from many cultures around the world. I'm not sure removing books relating to transgender people is a good thing. Historically the people banning and removing books from libraries haven't been the good or progressive ones.

Can you show us or tell us about these records?

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:55

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 17:41

Thanks for replying. One more question: What do you mean by 'claims to be a gender'?

Gender is the set of cultural stereotypes associated with a person's sex. It is imposed from outside. I don't have a concept of 'being a gender'. Can you explain what it means to 'be a gender'? Thanks.

'Claims to be a gender' as in, if someone is born male, grows up to say 'I am a woman'.

You know what I mean when I say trans person. Someone who says they don't match the sex they were born.

I don't know the reason people feel this way. I do believe in single sex spaces being protected, and that women (born female) face persecution and discrimination on the grounds of our sex and our sexual characteristics, and that the life of a trans woman is not the same as the life of a natal woman.

My point here is that I think children should be able to learn about trans people in history and the modern world.

I may finish replying here because it's been quite relentless. Hopefully no one feels I'm ignoring any particular response but I feel I've really said all I came here to say, which is, again, that I don't think transgender-ness needs removing from children's reading material, as long as it's appropriate.

Deadcog · 04/07/2025 17:56

However, I am also wary of attempts to automatically recast non-gender conforming women as 'trans' in the modern sense just because they defied the super restrictive gender expectations of some historical periods.

This is my position on the matter. I find it insulting that women who defied expectations placed on our sex by the patriarchy are appropriated as being trans.

recipientofraspberries · 04/07/2025 17:56

MyQuirkyTraybake · 04/07/2025 17:55

Can you show us or tell us about these records?

Well I've posted links to what I believe to be records, but many here seem to disagree. That's fine. But I've posted links, also it's easily google-able. There are lots of books which probably put it better than I have.