Women are not having more children because of competition from “new fun technology” academic on R4 Today programme

[Tootingbec]

Not because of the cost of childcare, or the impact on our careers, pensions, financial independence, or because of women not accepting sub- standard relationships anymore etc etc - I could go on!

No, according to Dr Alice Evans (interviewed at about 6.50am) it is because improved technology and leisure gives women more options around “fun things” they can do instead of have children. And we need to make parenting more exciting and enjoyable and easier to compete with (I quote) “this new fun technology and other fun stuff”

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Without any irony she then goes on to say in a “this is really fascinating!” tone that another reason is lower marriage rates and that “marriage rates are falling in countries like Iran, Turkey and Egypt!” Ya think Dr Evans?! Women in countries with horrific violence against women and girls and where women’s rights are going backwards, are weirdly not wanting to get married and have children?!?

Honestly it was the most facile examination of falling birth rates and why women might be opting out of marriage, relationships and child bearing I have heard

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Sounds ridiculous, what about all the men choosing to be childless, and reducing the available pool of available and suitable men?

Its all a women's issue??!!

I heard this interview and agree about the facile analysis. In addition to the points you raise, we now have graduates with substantial loan debt, unaffordable housing, wave after wave of maternity care scandal, unaffordable childcare and cost of living pressures. To my mind, the distractions are the salve for a generation’s wider frustrations at being unable to lead the lives they’d really want to.

It was a really odd interview

I mean, I don't have kids through choice and watch a SHIT load of YouTube!

In all seriousness, the "fun technology" is one tiny element of a better quality of life I felt I could have if I didn't have children. More money for unforseen eventualities (new roof, new boiler, new car, a desperately-needed operation), travel and leisure. More time and freedom to do things like exercise, eat really well, rest and have quality time with my husband, parents and friends. More financial independence thanks to being able to pursue the kind of career I want, and therefore greater autonomy over my own life. Plus an economic picture that doesn't make it appealing (to me) to have kids.

I had the choice, and I took it.

There is no quality news content on the BBC, that’s your mistake

It’s aimed at the lowest common denominator

I find this debate often focuses on trying to find reason for the women who have no children. But surely, if you want to encourage babies, its makes as much sense to look at women who have children and wonder why they were one and done, or stopped at 2.

Im pretty sure having more fun with technology is not the reason.

I'm always surprised how maternity care isn't mentioned. I had a difficult second pregnancy and no bloody way was I risking that again.

I had two and no more because of cost. Now they are both at uni, I'm bloody glad. Honestly feel like we've been penalised by the state for having kids...

But surely, if you want to encourage babies, its makes as much sense to look at women who have children and wonder why they were one and done, or stopped at 2.

I think in a lot of cases that's common sense surely? The whole world is set up to make 2 kids the easy amount. Fit in a car, family tickets, average sized houses, not to mention 2 kids and your career can recover, 3 and you're spending a sizeable chunk of life struggling with young kids.

'Fun' stuff is such a stupid analysis though. I spend more time hanging around waiting for my kids doing stupid shit on my phone/computer now than I did when I was childless FGS.

Women aren't going 'shall I play more Angry Birds, or have a 3rd child'. WoW until midnight or BFing?

Plus, why do we need more kids, I thought over-population was a problem? If it's just to solve the pensions/care crisis then I feel like we need a better solution than kicking it down the road by having more babies.

I think that's a really good point.

Like people only ever looked at recruitment to teaching, it took decades to realise we needed to look more at retention.

Stop trying to 'recruit' women to motherhood who've decided against it, and focus on lifting the barriers preventing people having 2 or 3 children if they want them.

The couples I know who don’t have children are married, financially comfortable and just don’t want kids. I was on the fence myself. A lot are getting married later (seems to be true across the arab world too).

I think theres an opportunity cost to having kids and the question is “should we” not “when”. Definitely thats the case in my family, it’s not necessarily tech, it’s opportunity cost around travelling, spending on personal wellbeing etc. kids are a lot of work and if people have more choice over whether to have them more and more will opt out. I think given the fact that women still take the bulk of childcare women need to consider carefully if they can risk having kids because if things go tits up theres a good chance they will be left holding the baby.

Also women in very patriarchal societies tend not to have a choice about getting married. A drop in marriage rates is a sign of greater female freedom rather than more repression imo.

Birth rates are dropping EVERYWHERE, so a local explanation may not be sufficient explanation for the changes.

Yes, but one and done is becoming the normal family size. When I was growing up 2.4 was the refered to size, now its 1.5

I get going from 2 to 3 might mean family tickets are a no, or car seats are tricky but one to two doesn't have that hurdle.

An awful lot of people are having one and that's great if that's what they wanted. But maybe many would have 2 if x, y, z.

Why is anyone worrying about a falling birth rate when the world is already overpopulated?

I think this is a really good point. I have one because I don’t want anymore, I could afford more but theres an opportunity cost to me to do so. If I had my DD younger I may have considered a second but I had her in my late 30’s. I was married in my 20’s so I could have had a child younger but the opportunity cost was too high at that point for me. I really value my spare time and I’m an introvert. I almost had zero kids to be honest. I never really had that urge some women talk about to have kids.

If I had chosen no children then I would have ignored anyone trying to pester me into it.

She was as mad as a box of frogs. I was listening wondering what planet she was on.

Well, yes, this is exactly it, isn’t it? Women increasingly have choices, and are choosing not to reproduce. For very obvious reasons.

If governments are concerned about population, they need to come up with policies that mean women aren’t disproportionately penalised economically and professionally for having children. And even then…

OP you’re being unfair to her when you say she has “facile” analysis of Iran, Turkey and Egypt. You are confusing level and change. Yes, those countries have poor women’s rights. No, that does not mean they are going backwards or getting worse. Iran in particular is seeing rapid change for the better as urban society becomes more secular and western.

Furthermore, you get the relationship between women’s rights and birth rates the wrong way round. You seem to think that poor women’s rights leads to women choosing to have fewer children. All the data suggests that when women have more and better rights and better levels of education then birth rates fall. Look at what birth rates are in Afghanistan - terrible place to be a woman, very high birth rates. Falling birth rates in Iran, Turkey and Egypt are probably because life there for women is getting better not worse.

I didn't hear the interview but generally find Alice Evans' work fascinating. One of her arguments is that young people are socialising less, and dating less - partly due to new technology - so they are less likely to form long-lasting partnerships they want to bring children into.

I do know lots of women who would have liked to have kids if they'd found the right man, but never did. Of course this is partly because there are lots of dreadful men around. Alice Evans discusses this in her work on developing countries, where women often now have more career options so aren't forced into marriage.

Agreed with others that we should stop pestering women who don’t want children. It’s a perfectly valid choice which many do find more fun. What’s the issue?

Personally I’d have loved 3 and started trying at 27. I’m one and done because of fertility issues that required 9 years of IVF. Same as many friends. Maybe we should be looking at the environmental issues leading to many many people with reduced fertility.

My parents left school at 15 and 14, so by the time they wanted children, they'd been in work at least 10 years. Enough time to get job security and a bit of money saved. Plus the expectation was that my mum was always going to be a mum and not have a career. She was weighing up an ok job vrs a family.

As it gets more common to have degrees and post degree qualifications, and careers can take a while to be established, the age when couples are ready will increase. Added to the problem of housing/wage balance not being the same as they were in the 60s.

Now women are generally older when they are financially ready to have children, its not such a straight forward decision. Its not shiny stuff distracting them, its the the status of a career, relationships not be in the right place, seeing their friends having children and knowing its not for them, or just leaving it too late.

I do agree they maybe something in encouraging those who want to be parents to have more, but that will take a big shift in attitude.

There is definitely an ageing population problem in lots of western countries. And thats not easily solved by increasing working age or immigration.

This is what I feel too. We can't sustain 8 billion people. A falling birth rate will be very tough for a while, but there are just too many of us. Since I was born the number of people has doubled. This can't carry on.

Look at rates for gaming based on sex.

Middle aged mothers don't have time to game. I don't know any other mum who games. I'm literally the only one I know. Middle aged Dads however.

So what does this actually say?

But somehow this data is STILL used to blame women... Funny that.

Yeah I follow her too, she’s often bang on in her analysis imo. Coupling up is the big one.

This is obviously partly mens fault. Think we should have some information campaigns about not being a twat or thinking you have all the time in the world to have kids. I actually do think men need to understand that their sperm quality starts to degrade as they get older, so if they want kids they should perhaps consider this when they are dating. There has been so much information out there about womens fertility but literally zero on mens.

I also know perfectly nice women who just didn’t find the right man in time to have kids. Can think of 4 related to me off the top of my head and I’m asian where people are really keen to introduce you to all the single men they know (we don’t do arranged marriages in my family, they died out in my mums generation).

Thd problem is, a healthy birth rate in one country doesn't benefit the economy of a country with an ageing population.

The people of Niger dont want to pay for the care of the elderly in Britain or Japan.

I think a lot of countries will face the “get old before you get rich” issue.

The point is, the world is overpopulated. An ever-increasing global population is unsustainable.

If you're concerned about man-made climate change you should welcome a falling birth rate.