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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"We have always been here"

599 replies

DiamondThrone · 22/06/2025 14:34

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

OP posts:
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TheKeatingFive · 23/06/2025 13:29

And surely the slightest hint of aggression/violence destroys their argument completely anyway.

Why would women want to give the green light to violent / aggressive men being allowed in their spaces?

If this is how these men behave when they're told no.

MarieDeGournay · 23/06/2025 13:30

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 11:55

They cropped out sign that said 'LESBIANS ARE ON THE MARCH' and photoshopped in a placard saying 'TRANS RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS'.

That just broke my fucking heart.

The original 1983 photo:

"We have always been here"
DurinsBane · 23/06/2025 13:31

DiamondThrone · 22/06/2025 18:11

No, I said neither of those things. And even if I had, none of my "fair and correct" points would have been ruined by that.

Off you pop, "I'm just being reasonable" TRA!

Honestly, do they think we're new here!

You said ‘and I think all/most would like that’. So yes it looks like you were in insinuating it. MN has now deleted your post, so looks like I’m not the only one who thought you said it.
I am no where near being a TRA, I just don’t think it is right to infer trans people would like the age of consent to be 12.

MarieDeGournay · 23/06/2025 13:31

..and the altered 2023 Pride version:

"We have always been here"
TheKeatingFive · 23/06/2025 13:31

I am still shocked at the insouciance with which this shower tried to rewrite history. And didnt even blink when they were caught in the act.

DurinsBane · 23/06/2025 13:34

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/06/2025 13:26

How many women threatened or hurt by violent TW is your cut off? How many would be too many? Is 1 ok? 50?

Obviously none, hence I said none. But you could say it about anything. Normal males are a much bigger risk to women, let’s keep men and women separate all the time then. Separate gym times, separate swimming times, different train carriages etc

SammyScrounge · 23/06/2025 13:35

CassOle · 22/06/2025 14:42

Oh no, you misunderstand. They have 'always been here' means throughout all of history and time. Before the big bang, trans identities floated disembodied throughout the nothingness.

Didn't you know that there was a trans Roman Emperor and that Hitler had a vendetta against trans people who he shipped off to concentration camps?
We have a new history, courtesy of the trans movement. 😁😁😁😁

TheKeatingFive · 23/06/2025 13:37

DurinsBane · 23/06/2025 13:34

Obviously none, hence I said none. But you could say it about anything. Normal males are a much bigger risk to women, let’s keep men and women separate all the time then. Separate gym times, separate swimming times, different train carriages etc

We already do keep 'normal' males out of women's toilets, changing rooms, domestic violence shelters.

That's kinda the whole point.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/06/2025 13:39

DurinsBane · 23/06/2025 13:34

Obviously none, hence I said none. But you could say it about anything. Normal males are a much bigger risk to women, let’s keep men and women separate all the time then. Separate gym times, separate swimming times, different train carriages etc

If you look at the statistics, TW provide exactly the same amount of risk as “normal” men. Whether or not the TW are on cross-sex hormones, whether or not they have been castrated, they retain their male patterns of criminality, including their patterns of VAGW.

ETA: If you are going to use the “men will hurt women anyway, so why bother with any sex-segregated spaces,” argument, I just give up.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/06/2025 13:41

DurinsBane · 23/06/2025 13:34

Obviously none, hence I said none. But you could say it about anything. Normal males are a much bigger risk to women, let’s keep men and women separate all the time then. Separate gym times, separate swimming times, different train carriages etc

In what way do trans women not count as "normal males"?

DeanElderberry · 23/06/2025 13:41

MarieDeGournay · 23/06/2025 13:30

The original 1983 photo:

The protest was a response not to the murder alone, but to the fact that after the killers were found guilty, the judge (Sean Gannon) who had directed that the verdict must be manslaughter, not murder (they kicked their victim's head in among other things), handed down a suspended sentence and commented that the thugs were from good families and didn't need correction.

I still get the shakes about it.

Dehumanised by the killers, dehumanised by the judge, and dehumanised by the Trans Rights Advocates.

RIP Declan

MagpiePi · 23/06/2025 13:44

SammyScrounge · 23/06/2025 13:35

Didn't you know that there was a trans Roman Emperor and that Hitler had a vendetta against trans people who he shipped off to concentration camps?
We have a new history, courtesy of the trans movement. 😁😁😁😁

“Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia"

Catiette · 23/06/2025 14:04

suggestionsplease1 · 22/06/2025 22:48

That's a bit of a wooly description, and I don't think everyone in the scientific community would agree with you if you were attempting to use that as an ultimate definer of 100% of mammals as either binary female or male. Well, they clearly don't, plenty happily acknowledge intersex conditions without attempting to label everything as ultimately male or female.

Only halfway through, but my goodness is this becoming maddening to read!

@suggestionsplease1, do you realise that, by logical extension, you're arguing for the collapse of language itself? OK, I exaggerate for satirical effect, but what is with all these "everyone"s and "ultimate"s and everythings"s?! It's a child's eye view of the world - it doesn't exist! There are also people "in the scientific community" who are creationists and conspiracy theorists; I suspect there's a fair chance that, if you looked hard enough globally, you could find someone with excellent postgraduate credentials utterly convinced the pyramids were built by aliens, or secretly looking forward to the return of our lizard overlords.

So stop with the toddler-ish nit-picking!!!

It's really simple. As humans, we use our unique capacity for reason and language to organise the world around us. Often the relationship between signifier (descriptor) and signified (thing being described) is straightforward: geometrically speaking, "square" has a single, unambiguous definition. Sometimes, the relationship between signifier and signified is more complex: when I say that I "feel queasy", I've no way of knowing my experience is precisely the same as yours. But that doesn't render the concept of "queasiness" meaningless or redundant.

Those arguing that "man" and "woman" are too fluid to define are arguing for the removal of our ability to name the 51% of the human race typically born with the capacity to bear children and an extreme physical vulnerability to the other half. You're stoically arguing for the removal of these words from our language, and thereby those concepts from our common understanding, purely on the basis that there are outliers, as there always, always will be (except, perhaps, in the case of squares - although, come to think of it, I wonder if some geometrist on here could challenge me on that, too!)

To me, it's very simple. I believe that to argue for the removal or redefinition of these words simply to accommodate outliers is astonishingly naive, and often reflects an unacknowledged privilege.

For my part, as long as sex differences remain, I'll fight to retain the right to a word that describes the half of the population who are subjected to FGM, relegated to period huts, and denied windows in Afghanistan. The half who are only able to participate fully in western society because of birth control. The half who were only recently permitted to vote, and within the last 30 years, in England, seen as sufficiently the property of their husbands that marital rape remained legal.

I'm all for additive language and concepts, but this debate over whether women are permitted a word of their own?! The very existence of the debate is, itself, evidence, to me, of as great a need as there ever has been.

DurinsBane · 23/06/2025 14:05

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/06/2025 13:41

In what way do trans women not count as "normal males"?

You know what I meant. The accepted terms are CIS males and trans women, but I know that isn’t liked here (and I don’t like the term CIS) so I was using other terms

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 14:09

DurinsBane · 23/06/2025 13:34

Obviously none, hence I said none. But you could say it about anything. Normal males are a much bigger risk to women, let’s keep men and women separate all the time then. Separate gym times, separate swimming times, different train carriages etc

Don't be disingenuous. All we are saying is that trans women should be excluded from the places (physical and conceptual) that we already exclude men from.

If society has decided that there is a justification to exclude men in a given scenario then the argument to exclude trans women is already made. There is no special difference that makes TW less of a threat in women-only spaces, or a disadvantage to women in woman-only opportunities, than any other man.

"Oh there are not as many of them" is not a special case for including men who claim to believe they are women, any more than it's a specal case to include disabled men, or gay men, or old men, or ASD men, or any other "not a stereotypical man" men.

If you believe trans women should not be treated like other men, you need to make that argument from first principles, not just rely on meaningless cant like "trans women are women so they are welcome in women's spaces" that does not address the reason why women's spaces exist in the first place nor explain how trans women are women in the same sense of "woman" that underpins the reason we have women-only provisions.

DeanElderberry · 23/06/2025 14:10

I don't accept 'cis'. An unnecessary neologism. We have woman. We have man.

And I use transwoman, not trans woman, transman not trans man.

illinivich · 23/06/2025 14:11

A bit of an aside, but i dont think 'cis' has caught on as much as TRA wanted.

We know what cis is meant to mean here, but its not widely used in main stream media.

MarieDeGournay · 23/06/2025 14:15

DeanElderberry · 23/06/2025 13:41

The protest was a response not to the murder alone, but to the fact that after the killers were found guilty, the judge (Sean Gannon) who had directed that the verdict must be manslaughter, not murder (they kicked their victim's head in among other things), handed down a suspended sentence and commented that the thugs were from good families and didn't need correction.

I still get the shakes about it.

Dehumanised by the killers, dehumanised by the judge, and dehumanised by the Trans Rights Advocates.

RIP Declan

Thank you for adding that, Deano.
One of the murderers went on to rape a pregnant woman and was sentenced to 10 years, so justice caught up with him eventually, though not justice for Declan RIP.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 14:22

illinivich · 23/06/2025 14:11

A bit of an aside, but i dont think 'cis' has caught on as much as TRA wanted.

We know what cis is meant to mean here, but its not widely used in main stream media.

It also tends to get used, even by allies, as a straight replacement for the old words men and women. They forget it requires that the "cis" person has a gender in common with the "trans" person. But this should not be assumed simply because someone is a certain sex and you do not know for certain that they have called themselves trans.

Which illustrates very clearly that even the "allies" and TRAs don't really believe this stuff when they aren't concentrating on it. They all still know underneath who is a man and who is a women.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/06/2025 14:27

Catiette · 23/06/2025 14:04

Only halfway through, but my goodness is this becoming maddening to read!

@suggestionsplease1, do you realise that, by logical extension, you're arguing for the collapse of language itself? OK, I exaggerate for satirical effect, but what is with all these "everyone"s and "ultimate"s and everythings"s?! It's a child's eye view of the world - it doesn't exist! There are also people "in the scientific community" who are creationists and conspiracy theorists; I suspect there's a fair chance that, if you looked hard enough globally, you could find someone with excellent postgraduate credentials utterly convinced the pyramids were built by aliens, or secretly looking forward to the return of our lizard overlords.

So stop with the toddler-ish nit-picking!!!

It's really simple. As humans, we use our unique capacity for reason and language to organise the world around us. Often the relationship between signifier (descriptor) and signified (thing being described) is straightforward: geometrically speaking, "square" has a single, unambiguous definition. Sometimes, the relationship between signifier and signified is more complex: when I say that I "feel queasy", I've no way of knowing my experience is precisely the same as yours. But that doesn't render the concept of "queasiness" meaningless or redundant.

Those arguing that "man" and "woman" are too fluid to define are arguing for the removal of our ability to name the 51% of the human race typically born with the capacity to bear children and an extreme physical vulnerability to the other half. You're stoically arguing for the removal of these words from our language, and thereby those concepts from our common understanding, purely on the basis that there are outliers, as there always, always will be (except, perhaps, in the case of squares - although, come to think of it, I wonder if some geometrist on here could challenge me on that, too!)

To me, it's very simple. I believe that to argue for the removal or redefinition of these words simply to accommodate outliers is astonishingly naive, and often reflects an unacknowledged privilege.

For my part, as long as sex differences remain, I'll fight to retain the right to a word that describes the half of the population who are subjected to FGM, relegated to period huts, and denied windows in Afghanistan. The half who are only able to participate fully in western society because of birth control. The half who were only recently permitted to vote, and within the last 30 years, in England, seen as sufficiently the property of their husbands that marital rape remained legal.

I'm all for additive language and concepts, but this debate over whether women are permitted a word of their own?! The very existence of the debate is, itself, evidence, to me, of as great a need as there ever has been.

Edited

Great post. I'm so sick of the - I'm sorry, but utter stupidity - of saying "oh if we can't classify everything with 100% accuracy, we can't classify anything ever at all", as if the fact that women have been treated differently because of our bodies isn't evidence enough.

It's like saying because we have tides on the beach, there cannot be a difference between mountains and seas, or because light is a spectrum, traffic lights are and impossibility.

Catiette · 23/06/2025 14:56

Some more thoughts on the privilege that I think influences some - many - of those (and in particular, many women - see how I need that word?) who are arguing for the collapse of our ability to distinguish clearly in language between male and female humans...:

One of the clearest examples of it that I've seen was earlier in this thread, in the earnest suggestion that (paraphrasing) maybe an ancient woman warrior was seen wholly as a man. Not in the sense of being mistaken for one (which would be unlikely enough), or in the sense of masquerading or behaving as one, or even by being generously gifted with honorary membership, but, instead Being Seen As A Man By Her Society, in the most absolute sense.

But how could this be? Truly? Just think about it.

It's only recently - terrifyingly recently, really - in human history that humans (and women, in particular - there's that pesky word again) have enjoyed the privilege of being liberated, relatively speaking, from their physical bodies and differences. It's because of birth control, equalities law and a growing detachment from our physical realities through the industrial and electronic revolutions (etc.) that this has become possible.

Prior to this, the suggestion that a woman could be seen as entirely a man, with all the physical advantages that that entailed, is surely, regrettably, laughable - again, the stuff of children's adventure stories. What - her relative physical weakness an overlooked irrelevance? Her vulnerability to impregnation of no significance? No distinction made between her and "actual" men at all?

Let's face it. Whether she was travelling, fighting or at home alone, in a world reliant on physical strength and subject to brute force, her physical reality represented an unavoidable truth that she simply couldn't - and that those around her just wouldn't - deny. Certainly, they wouldn't - couldn't - re-conceptualise what it meant to be a man or a woman to expand these categories so as to include her in the authentic sense apparently intended by PP.

The fantasy that they could do this is, to me, just another indicator of the unthinking privilege enjoyed by many in the western world who propound this ideology. It does seem significant to me that, whereas other manifestations of gendered difference that "our" trans advocates often attempt to appropriate in the "we've always existed" slogan - eg. fa'afafine - are actually additive approaches to accommodating this difference. They don't seek to dilute, negate or outright deny the concept of man and woman as PPs on this thread do. Instead - tellingly, I think - it seems, largely, to be only the most affluent capitalist societies that feel able to do away once and for all with the actual terms "man" and "woman" themselves. And even within these societies, it's the more privileged - the middle and upper classes, and the educated elite - that are more likely to argue for this. That is, those who are furthest removed from the realities of being physically vulnerable in a volatile environment, or struggling to pay for personal hygiene products, or enduring an unwelcome familiarity with the dodgiest public toilets in the most rundown corners of town.

And this naive, capitalist privilege, in which what one says, is what one is, and what one wants, one expects to have, and individualism is all... Honestly, it's yet another reason why I believe it's actually more important than ever that we hold on to our ability to name women's sex-based needs. Because it belies a frightening complacency that makes us vulnerable. We can't afford to rely on our current level of privilege - our current social structures, and associated sex-based protections - lasting. Please, let's not start dismantling these ourselves even before external forces (the environment, competition for resources, war, a declining population) do it for us!

Do you really think there's no distinction between the vulnerability, and fates, of women and of men in the event of famine, natural disaster or invasion? When a group, or society, or humanity itself is threatened in one way or another? Of course there bloody is. The difference is immense.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/06/2025 15:09

DurinsBane · 23/06/2025 14:05

You know what I meant. The accepted terms are CIS males and trans women, but I know that isn’t liked here (and I don’t like the term CIS) so I was using other terms

What's the difference between a trans woman and a cis man though?

They're both male people.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 15:15

DurinsBane · 23/06/2025 14:05

You know what I meant. The accepted terms are CIS males and trans women, but I know that isn’t liked here (and I don’t like the term CIS) so I was using other terms

The accepted terms are CIS males and trans women

No. These are not accepted terms. The correct terms are "males" & "male transexuals" which leaves no ambiguity that they share the same male sex.

CassOle · 23/06/2025 15:32

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/06/2025 15:09

What's the difference between a trans woman and a cis man though?

They're both male people.

What's the difference between a man who thinks he's a woman, and a man who thinks he is a specific woman (eg Cleopatra)?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/06/2025 15:48

CassOle · 23/06/2025 15:32

What's the difference between a man who thinks he's a woman, and a man who thinks he is a specific woman (eg Cleopatra)?

I don't know, but I can think of two similarities between them.

  1. They are both men.
  2. They are both mistaken.