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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Consent will no longer be admitted as defence but brings prospect of more trials involving children as record number of cases wait to go to court

17 replies

IwantToRetire · 21/06/2025 21:14

There are 3,498 adult rape cases and 1,646 child rape cases waiting to go to court in England and Wales, both record high numbers. The National Police Chiefs’ Council recently described male violence against women and girls as being at an “epidemic scale ”. Among those who work with victims, frustrations with the criminal justice system are so great that

It is in this context that the Home Office has just proposed a new law that will stop a man charged with raping a child under 16 from presenting a defence of “consent” to a jury. This means that, even if the man had a reasonable belief that he had consent – and even if the child insists they consented – if there is no question that sex has taken place, he must be charged with rape.

The proposed new law brings the prospect of higher numbers of rape trials involving children, which would require a specially trained barrister, at a time when the criminal justice system is both overloaded and under-resourced. It will also challenge the Crown Prosecution Service to bring “victimless prosecutions”, whereby a child may refuse to give evidence if they believe they were in a consensual relationship with an adult.

The measure comes in response to Baroness Louise Casey’s grooming gangs report, published last week, which found “too many” examples of child sexual exploitation cases being dropped or downgraded from rape to lesser charges “where a 13 to 15 year-old had been ‘in love with’ or ‘had consented to’ sex with the perpetrator”.

In England and Wales, penetrative sex with an under 13-year-old must be charged as rape. But with offences involving sex with a 13 to 15-year-old, the Crown Prosecution Service has more discretion. The Casey audit discovered cases where penetrative sex with a child aged 13-15 had not resulted in a charge of rape but instead a lesser but still serious charge, such as sexual activity with a child, or causing or inciting a child to engage in sexual activity. On conviction, this inevitably resulted in significantly shorter sentences than would have been imposed for rape.

But the success of the new law will depend on whether a jury is prepared to convict a man of rape when a child aged, for argument’s sake, 15, insists that she loved him.

While the Home Office proposal has been widely praised in the child sexual exploitation sector, a criminal barrister, who asked not to be named, thought it could backfire. “It comes with some risk of reducing the numbers of convictions and definitely diminishes the already low prospects of an offender pleading guilty,” he said.

Continues at https://observer.co.uk/news/national/article/new-child-rape-law-could-extend-wait-for-justice

New child rape law could prolong victims’ wait for justice

New child rape law could prolong victims’ wait for justice

Consent will no longer be admitted as defence but brings prospect of more trials involving children as record number of cases wait to go to court

https://observer.co.uk/news/national/article/new-child-rape-law-could-extend-wait-for-justice

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 21/06/2025 21:30

Seems pretty useful clarification to me.

Don't have sex with children. Full stop.

IButtleSir · 21/06/2025 21:44

ArabellaScott · 21/06/2025 21:30

Seems pretty useful clarification to me.

Don't have sex with children. Full stop.

It's the sort of thing that really ought to go without saying, but apparently doesn't.

IwantToRetire · 21/06/2025 23:04

ArabellaScott · 21/06/2025 21:30

Seems pretty useful clarification to me.

Don't have sex with children. Full stop.

Exactly.

And even if the child says they "love" their attacker, there are any number of cases where it would be said they didn't really know what love is, and / or it was as much about getting attention from an older person, when a young girl is lost and confused with maybe no family or a family for whatever reason has not provided her with a home she feels safe and secure it.

Addd to which is men, not so young, ie 25 and under, are thought no to understand what sexual abuse is and get a lesser sentence, why cant we apply the reverse and say any man exploiting a women of 25 and under is taking advantage of their immaturity.

OP posts:
Imnobody4 · 21/06/2025 23:43

Presumably the judge will direct the jury. Did sex take place, if so it's rape. Seems pretty clear to me.

2024onwardsandup · 21/06/2025 23:52

IwantToRetire · 21/06/2025 23:04

Exactly.

And even if the child says they "love" their attacker, there are any number of cases where it would be said they didn't really know what love is, and / or it was as much about getting attention from an older person, when a young girl is lost and confused with maybe no family or a family for whatever reason has not provided her with a home she feels safe and secure it.

Addd to which is men, not so young, ie 25 and under, are thought no to understand what sexual abuse is and get a lesser sentence, why cant we apply the reverse and say any man exploiting a women of 25 and under is taking advantage of their immaturity.

Yeah funny how the lack of capacity only works one way isn’t it

as someone said - its a factual
question of whether there was sex and the child was that age.

I suppose some notion for mitigating circumstances can be taken into account in sentencing if that’s what they’re so worried about - but I would struggle to see what could be mitigating

LittleHangleton · 21/06/2025 23:56

This would stop teenagers accessing contraception advise.

Currently 13-16yo can access healthy relationship advise and contraception from trained HCP if deemed competent. Sweeping the fact that large numbers of this age group are sexually active would regress women's rights back several decades.

RedToothBrush · 22/06/2025 00:00

'im not capable of making sure I know or can identify how young she is....

...but she is capable enough to consent when she's 15...

IwantToRetire · 22/06/2025 00:01

LittleHangleton · 21/06/2025 23:56

This would stop teenagers accessing contraception advise.

Currently 13-16yo can access healthy relationship advise and contraception from trained HCP if deemed competent. Sweeping the fact that large numbers of this age group are sexually active would regress women's rights back several decades.

I assumed that the existing law re age difference between a girl / young woman and a man would still apply.

But it would have been good if the article covered that.

Although in terms of power in a relationship I suspect a 13 year old girl and boy of 16 would still be a big gap.

OP posts:
TempestTost · 22/06/2025 03:09

LittleHangleton · 21/06/2025 23:56

This would stop teenagers accessing contraception advise.

Currently 13-16yo can access healthy relationship advise and contraception from trained HCP if deemed competent. Sweeping the fact that large numbers of this age group are sexually active would regress women's rights back several decades.

Should children be getting contraception advice from adults who know they are being raped?

RawBloomers · 22/06/2025 06:02

IwantToRetire · 22/06/2025 00:01

I assumed that the existing law re age difference between a girl / young woman and a man would still apply.

But it would have been good if the article covered that.

Although in terms of power in a relationship I suspect a 13 year old girl and boy of 16 would still be a big gap.

What law re age differences?

tripleginandtonic · 22/06/2025 06:26

LittleHangleton · 21/06/2025 23:56

This would stop teenagers accessing contraception advise.

Currently 13-16yo can access healthy relationship advise and contraception from trained HCP if deemed competent. Sweeping the fact that large numbers of this age group are sexually active would regress women's rights back several decades.

Why do you think that? Presumably teenagers will still be having sex with other teenagers and that won't be classed as rape until they're adults?

IwantToRetire · 22/06/2025 16:39

RawBloomers · 22/06/2025 06:02

What law re age differences?

It isn't a law, but are sentencing guidelines.

I cant find correct link but this article gives and indication
https://thirtyoneeight.org/help-and-resources/help-guides/understanding-underage-sex/

Understanding underage sex

https://thirtyoneeight.org/help-and-resources/help-guides/understanding-underage-sex

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 22/06/2025 21:57

Four young boys were raped and sexually abused over a period of more than a year by a 13-year-old boy.

The culprit was eventually identified and appeared in court after an agonising 22 months for the victims' families. However, he was immediately released due to his age, leaving them confused and outraged, while their children continue suffering the trauma of his abuse.

The judiciary refused to explain their decision to let the rapist walk free.

The Crown Prosecution Service would only comment that convictions from a Youth Court in the UK cannot be appealed.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/parents-discover-four-young-children-35432422

Parents discover their four kids were raped and sexually abused by schoolboy

WARNING- SENSITIVE CONTENT: The parents of the primary school-aged victims have said their children endured 22 months of additional suffering before the case finally came to trial this year.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/parents-discover-four-young-children-35432422

OP posts:
POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 07:41

LittleHangleton · 21/06/2025 23:56

This would stop teenagers accessing contraception advise.

Currently 13-16yo can access healthy relationship advise and contraception from trained HCP if deemed competent. Sweeping the fact that large numbers of this age group are sexually active would regress women's rights back several decades.

By "competent", do you mean "Gillick competency"?

This seems to have been a source of confusion amongst some HCPs, ie. with them thinking that if they deem a child competent to consent to treatment (contraception or abortion) then the child must be consenting to sex.

"Sweeping the fact that large numbers of this age group are sexually active would regress women's rights back several decades."

These are children so surely this is an issue of the rights of the child rather than women's rights?

One of the reasons that CSE victims have been failed so badly for decades by the state is that HCPs and other professionals have viewed them as adults making "lifestyle choices" rather than as children being raped. This attitude extended to even younger children, with 11 and 12 year olds being described as "sexually active" rather than being recognised as rape victims.

Independent Inquiry: Telford Child Sexual Exploitation

Volume 1:

"Victims and survivors were also critical about how easy it can be to obtain emergency contraception or abortion services without appropriate questions being asked. Concern was raised that these services can be obtained from a range of providers (sexual health clinics, GPs and pharmacies) without any questions being raised of familiar faces."

"one survivor witness who suffered exploitation in the 1990s said that she repeatedly visited the same GP practice for the morning after pill. No one ever asked any questions about her age or why she needed the morning after pill; the witness said it felt like no one really cared. She was 14 years old.

I have frequently heard evidence from witnesses that during the early part of my Terms of Reference, medical support was sought by under-aged children for abortions and sexually transmitted infections from GPs and sexual health clinics and no questions were asked."

Volume 1:
https://www.telford.gov.uk/media/ivsjb1k2/iitcseplusreportplus-plusvolumeplusone.pdf

Volume 4

page 1054 - 1070
Case Study – Rebecca (“Becky”) Watson (1999 to 2002)

8.69 The case of Becky Watson is another that has received media attention in the past, following her death in a road traffic incident in 2002. She was 13 years of age at the time of her death. The driver of the car pleaded guilty to causing her death by dangerous driving and was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment. More than a decade after Becky’s death, and in the wake of disclosures made by other victims in Operation Chalice, WMP carried out a review of Becky’s death, with a view to confirming whether or not there was evidence that Becky had been subjected to CSE during her short life. Those findings are discussed below, and, as a result, I find that Becky’s case is also a crucial one to be considered by this Inquiry as a case study.

8.71 Becky had a stable home environment without any engagement with agencies until she started secondary school in 2000, at which time Becky’s mother noticed that she was mixing with an older group of girls and beginning to exhibit challenging behaviours, such as testing boundaries and staying out later than agreed.49 At the same time, Becky was confronted by a teacher at school who asked if she was sexually active. Becky was 11 years of age . . . "

page 1071 - 1075
Case Study - Child C (early 2000s onwards)

Age 13: "Child C attended her GP surgery to request the contraceptive pill."

Age 14: "Approximately a year later Child C attended her GP surgery and the same request was made. Again, given her age, a referral to Safeguarding should have been considered; it is unclear from the evidence whether this happened."

7.103 The journey to understanding clearly how and when information should be shared has therefore not been straightforward. That journey has also been impacted by the introduction of legislation that has sought to protect personal data (the Data Protection Act 1998, and latterly, the General Data Protection Regulation and Data Protection Act 2018), creating an even more complex picture of when information should be protected, and there being serious implications if it is not. The evidence I have heard is that throughout this period there has been an increased level of nervousness and confusion on the part of some health professionals about the sharing of information and when it can be done.

7.104 Therefore, there is a complex decision mapping around the sharing of information: the clinician must listen to see whether they can obtain informed consent, judge that response, judge if the individual has the ability to consent (Gillick competency) and then decide with whom it needs to be shared, for example a sexual abuse therapist, a mental health worker, a parent/social worker. The clinician will need to decide who best to share the information with and to decide what level of information to give them so that the information sharing is reasonable and proportionate. I accept that these are difficult decisions for a clinician to be taking, in a context where there is already anxiety around sharing personal data.

8.152 Child C’s GP was also aware that Child C was sexually active as she attended the surgery twice for the contraceptive pill in two years, in her early teenage years. If Child C was considered Gillick competent and there were no other indicators of vulnerability or concern, the GP may not have felt there was any basis to make a referral to the Council’s Safeguarding team.

Volume 4:
https://www.telford.gov.uk/media/tekboktg/iitcseplusreportplus-plusvolumeplusfour.pdf


It is worrying that unintended consequences of the proposed change to the law for children aged 13 - 15 could include an increase in unwanted pregnancies and STIs.

On the other hand, while various campaigning groups were unsuccessful in getting the age of consent lowered to 14 in the 1970's we effectively have age of consent at 13 right now.(PIE wanted it even lower) with a significant proportion of children needing access to sexual health services, although this has apparently decreased substantially since 2002:

KEY DATA 2021
Sexual health and identity

The Health Behaviour in School Aged Children national surveys also ask questions about sexual behaviour. In the most recent 2018 surveys in England and Scotland, 20% of 15 year olds said they had experienced sexual intercourse (Brooks et al, 2020; Inchley et al 2020). The English report noted that the number of young people who said that they have had sexual intercourse had decreased substantially since 2002 among both boys and girls. Similarly, the proportion of young people who report very early onset of sexual intercourse (age 12 years or younger) had decreased across the same period (Brooks et al, 2020).

https://ayph-youthhealthdata.org.uk/key-data/sexual-health-and-identity/sexual-activity/

HBSC England National Report Findings from the 2021-2022 HBSC study for England
Nov 2023

15 YEAR OLDS WHO REPORTED HAVING HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE, 2002-2022

Overall, 21% of 15 year old respondents reported having had sexual intercourse; 21% of boys and 22% of girls. The proportion of 15 year olds reporting having had sexual intercourse increased for girls (18% to 22%) and slightly decreased for boys (23% to 21%) between 2018 and 2022, practically eliminating the gender differences observed in previous years (Figure 2.51).

15 YEAR OLDS REPORTING AGE OF ONSET FOR SEXUAL INTERCOURSE

77% of those 15 year olds who had ever had sexual intercourse reported having had their first sexual intercourse at age 14 or older. Boys were more likely to report the early onset of sexual activity; 13% of boys compared with 6% of girls reported their first sexual intercourse was at 12 years or younger (Figure 2.52)

https://hbscengland.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/2022_FULL_REPORT_final_02.12.24-2.pdf

https://hbscengland.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/2022_FULL_REPORT_final_02.12.24-2.pdf

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 09:12

IwantToRetire · 22/06/2025 21:57

Four young boys were raped and sexually abused over a period of more than a year by a 13-year-old boy.

The culprit was eventually identified and appeared in court after an agonising 22 months for the victims' families. However, he was immediately released due to his age, leaving them confused and outraged, while their children continue suffering the trauma of his abuse.

The judiciary refused to explain their decision to let the rapist walk free.

The Crown Prosecution Service would only comment that convictions from a Youth Court in the UK cannot be appealed.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/parents-discover-four-young-children-35432422

Those poor little boys! First raped, then put through that ordeal by the CPS, police and courts, then bullied at school as victims. What damage that must do to their parents and families too.

"The judiciary refused to explain their decision to let the rapist walk free, when asked by our sister title WalesOnline."

So much for "justice must not only be done but be seen to be done". Obvious to ask: WTF are they hiding!?

"The Crown Prosecution Service would only comment that convictions from a Youth Court in the UK cannot be appealed."

Maybe a lawyer will come along to clarify why the case was sent to a Youth Court but this is a possibility:

"Children and young people should only be sent for trial or committed for sentence to the Crown Court when charged with or found guilty of an offence of such gravity that a custodial sentence substantially exceeding two years is a realistic possibility."

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/overarching-guides/magistrates-court/item/sentencing-children-and-young-people/#step1

'I said his name and my son broke down' Teen raped two primary school boys

"I never thought something like this could happen"

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/i-said-name-son-broke-31859992

User37482 · 23/06/2025 09:19

I was actually quite surprised this wasn’t the default position already. With a romeo and juliet clause we should have already dome this.

IwantToRetire · 23/06/2025 18:48

This article has lots of useful info ie however European countires treat an age limit as absolute.

But this example shows how twisting the intent of a law is all too easy:

... Casey said the case provides a ‘shocking’ window into the types of daily discussions barristers, judges and juries are having about children under the age of consent having sex with adults. Robinson argued the rape charge against him should have been dismissed, arguing the 12 to 13-year-old victim was ‘infatuated’ with him. The trial judge, in considering this, observed the victim was ‘comparatively sexually mature for her age’, as she had started her periods at the age of 11 and ‘grown breasts’. The judge noted she was described as ‘attractive’. ...

Article in full at https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news-focus/not-grooming-but-rape-casey-review-calls-for-law-change/5123667.article

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