Change to decriminalise abortion law

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2le12114j9o

'MPs have voted to change abortion legislation to stop women in England and Wales being prosecuted for ending their pregnancy.
The landslide vote to decriminalise the procedure is the biggest change to abortion laws in England and Wales* *for nearly 60 years.
Women who terminate their pregnancy outside the rules, for example after 24 weeks, will no longer be at risk of being investigated by police.
The law will still penalise anyone who assists a woman, including medical professionals, in getting an abortion outside the current legal framework.
Labour MP Tonia Antoniazzi put forward the amendment to the Crime and Policing Bill, which was passed by a majority of 242 votes.'

Good

Progress!

It’s fantastic news.

I am concerned that this will put women’s lives at risk from dangerous induced abortions at home.

Well yes, on the one hand the defeated Johnson amendment would have made things safer; OTOH the amendment that passed will at least ensure miscarrying women can seek medical help without fear of police involvement, which is also safer.

Tonia Antoniazzi is a good woman in the Labour Party, that's for sure. Seems like she's been one of the very few. Wish she was my MP!

I’m really torn on this. I guess it’s a good thing. I’m definitely pro choice but feel by 24 weeks you should have chosen. But then there are always stories that have me question my beliefs. If it’s criminal to help late term abortion then only the very desperate would do it so I agree they should not be criminalised for that.

i guess I think it’s just trajic we love in a world where women seek such late abortion. In the numbers that led to this needing to be looked at legally. Next we need to see better support to leave dv, better welfare state for those who fall i to poverty in pregnancy. Better protection at work for mothers. More power to make men pay for the kids they father. Better education and access to contraception. Better contraception. Better affordable childcare. Better housing. Equality for women and safeguarding and support for children.

0.1% of abortions take place after 24 weeks.

I'm really pleased this has gone through.

So glad its changed , i was worried it might not !

I'm really not comfortable with this. What exactly is wrong with the current 24 week policy? You will have had all the scans and tests needed before 24 weeks to make a decision on health grounds and/or plenty of time to decide if it's an unwanted pregnancy before 24 weeks.

Thanks for posting the link. Really interesting reading the three amendments. I feel the right one passed. Always scary when the fragile but pragmatically managed settlement we have in the UK is under scrutiny. This feels positive.

Kathleen Stock, posting on twitter has weighed into the debate:

...Again, if you are reasoning like this, and especially if you are weighing it up only against the mother's alleged right to non-prosecution, then you have your priorities badly skewed, and have conveniently forgotten that deaths of babies are also involved. And while we are at it: how do you know it will only be a few baby deaths in years to come? Do you know what happens when new social norms get embedded around new technology, and other ones – say, around contraception – shift? The use of at-home abortion pills is relatively new, who knows where it will be in ten years time?

It will still be illegal to provide an abortion after 24 weeks unless there's a grave risk to the mother or serious fœtal abnormality.

Great news for women.

The 24 week limit was fine.
I think Stock is absolutely right.

There is still a 24 week limit, but women won't be prosecuted for aborting after this.

It is a difficult area to legislate, but Antoniazzi's choice seemed to tread a reasonable path. And hopefully will avoid the risk of women who've miscarried being subject to police investigations, which was a real worry. I expect balancing the women who would attempt an abortion outwith the limits against women who miscarry is the delicate balance being sought. I don't have figures on that, are there any? I assume miscarriage will be far more frequent than women seeking abortions after 24 weeks without support of HCPs etc.

'The new clause will not change any law regarding the provision of abortion services within a healthcare setting, including but not limited to the time limit, telemedicine, the grounds for abortion, or the requirement for two doctors' approval.

It was backed by all the main abortion providers, as well as 180 MPs from across the Commons and 50 organisations including the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG).'

She has a point. It’s a political legal opinion that a 24 week old baby is not a life, not a reality based one. It’s hard to make the moral case that a 24plus week baby in uterus is a life that has no value.

It’s the availability of abortion pills online that has caused this issue. We need to look at that system and deal with the problems that is causing. Deal with it at root, instead of this law. This law won’t stop the problem feom arising.

It's hard to discuss this issue without sounding insensitive, because one can't reduce the suffering to data and numbers and forget the trauma involved. I'm very mindful of that when looking at the statistics. I'm deeply sorry to anyone affected by the loss of a pregnancy or a baby.

My understanding is that post 24 weeks a miscarriage is classed as a stillbirth. Around 2,000 a year.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/articles/provisionalbirthsinenglandandwales/2021#stillbirths

'The legal limit for an abortion is 24 weeks’ gestation. This is the point at which the fetus is viable outside the woman’s body. Abortions may be performed after 24 weeks in certain circumstances - for example, if the woman’s life is at risk or the fetus would be born severely disabled. Abortions where gestation is 24 weeks or over account for a very small number of abortions (0.1% of the total). There were 260 such abortions in 2022..)'

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales-2022/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2022

More from a thread by K Stock

If you have to excuse the death of a baby by hyperbolically depicting the only sort of women who would ever have a late-term non-medical abortion as "desperate" and otherwise blameless, it's a tell for motivated reasoning. There are many kinds of women in the world, who act for many different kinds of reason. Do you think all infanticides or child murders are only carried out by "desperate" and otherwise blameless women? (If you do, probably stop reading, there is no hope for you.) There are also, of course, men in the world who can get their hands on abortion pills and force women to take them. Your backing of decriminalisation is making that more easy too.

Excellent.

The 24 week limit is still in place. After 24 weeks termination can only occur when the mothers life is at immediate risk or in the case of fetal abnormalities incompatible with life. Termination providers in the UK will still only provide care up to 24 weeks (outwith those 2 very narrow criteria).

Kathleen Stock hasn't fully understood the issue IMO.

If a woman presents for an abortion after 24 weeks and the 2 specific exceptions are not present she will not be offered one.

As I said, Kathleen Stock either doesn't fully understand or is deliberately misrepresenting the change.

The law will still penalise anyone who assists a woman, including medical professionals, in getting an abortion outside the current legal framework.

I thought Stock was writing about Creasy’s amendment that was defeated?

Agree. Looking into at-home abortion is a different matter.

That would make far more sense.

Creasey doesn't seem to be able to think beyond crude emotionally based reasoning.

FYI this isn’t actually the case. It does happen that not all test results are back in time to get an abortion by 24 weeks. I’m pleased for you that you’ve not been through that particular mill though.