Do you support transitioning at all?

[UnlockedXCX]

I somewhat do, I will admit. I think it's okay if an adult wants to take hormones, dress as they'd like to, be treated as M or F, or even change their name. I'll respect it all. However I don't agree with them being allowed into single sex spaces or conversations (a gay trans person is functionally a straight person, despite what they say, and a gay FtM shouldn't try to date gay guys for example).

I question if this is a common view or is it niche in these more gender critical spaces.

Yeah I don’t reckon thats right

i have PCOS and ds1 is gay 🧐

TW have brains that are closer to that of the typical female than the average man does

Ohhh. I know this one. They find no different between boys with and without trans identity. Put one group on Triptorelin and then find the group taking Triptorelin exhibit brain changes.

Bollocks…re the above

got distracted cos arguing re dickens or pratchet being funny

(they both are)

They said transwomen had different brains to normal blokes so clearly were saying trans identity does make a difference.

I'm unconvinced either way as need to do more reading. But random people online calling it bollocks seems less credible than studies published by the European Journal of Endocrinology. Why don't GC people ever provide studies if the matter is so cut and dried.

A) who said i am GC?

B) I was responding to the less testosterone means gay bit…i have an excess of testosterone due to PCOS and ds1 is gay

so purely down to anecdate….i call bollocks 🤷🏻

Ds 1 says bollocks as well…but he does love his mummy do may be biased

So, as a bloke, if I self ID to being a ‘woman’ my brain will change?!

who knew!

might try it for a week or two…
will it help with all those times when my wife says, “but in my head darling I knew exactly what I meant…” 😂

The study in question doesn't even claim that there's such a thing as a male or female brain, just to be clear. That's not what it concludes.

Its also quite poorly designed, not even controlling for things like sexual orientation.

What do you want the GC side to provide a study for? That people can't be born with the 'wrong brain'? 🫠

It doesn't even say that though. Even in this poorly designed study the markers observed were not in the female range.

The study that I read didn’t control for male people with same sex attraction. And the male people with transgender identities were within the male range and were not in the ‘female’ range. People have used the study to say that male people have brains ‘closer’ to female brains while forgetting that those male people’s brains were still grouped clearly in the male range.

What we do know is that our interests can create pathways within our brain and that this will show up in scans. For instance there was a study that showed london cabbies had these pathways that I cannot find again. But a male brain will still be a male brain, it will simply show pathways associated with things they are interested in or repetitive actions/ interests.

We also know that hormones create measurable differences. But again, it will only show a male brain being impacted by the hormones they produce or take. Any male person with the same mix of hormones will likely have the same impact showing on their brain, it is not a transgender specific trait.

Other than that, the physicality of the brains cannot change from being male. Because a male brain is shaped to fit a male skull. We do also know that a female brain has more delicate brain fibres thanks to the study at Swansea university. This is likely due to the standard volume and shape of the skull.

Personally, I would be very wary of using the conclusions of that study that shows that male brains are ‘closer’ to female brains as any kind of support for the group of male people having ‘female’ brains or even different brains. I thought the lack of obvious control and that it was a weak skewing meant the conclusion was presented as being stronger than the results.

Studies of what? That male people with transgender identities don’t have female brains?

How is this even logical to you that you want people to provide you with studies ? Once you understand that people’s interests, occupation and hobbies create common pathways, and then that specific hormones impact with the brain in specific ways, that the male brain will always have to fit a male skull and never a female skull, what is the study going to be measuring? What the fuck are you expecting us to provide you proof of?

maybe this will help.

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/read/are-there-sex-differences-in-the-brain

https://theconversation.com/you-dont-have-a-male-or-female-brain-the-more-brains-scientists-study-the-weaker-the-evidence-for-sex-differences-158005

I notice also that Bakker’s work has been mentioned and the Endocrinologist symposium.

I don't believe that a strong conclusion has been drawn by Bakker. I think that she has said there may be, but it all requires a lot more research. Without us seeing the results, we also don't know if the grouping were well within the known ranges for each sex.

I think posters mentioning her work are trying to convince readers that her work shows stronger conclusions that it does.

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/ei0psrhz/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

Abstract Symposium S30.3
Brain structure and function in gender dysphoria

The concept of gender identity is uniquely human. Hence we are left with the phenomenon of men and women suffering from Gender Dysphoria (GD) also known as transsexualism to study the origins of gender identity in humans. It has been hypothesized that atypical levels of sex steroids during a perinatal critical period of neuronal sexual differentiation may be involved in the development of GD. In order to test this hypothesis, we investigated brain structure and function in individuals diagnosed with GD using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Since GD is often diagnosed in childhood and puberty has been proposed to be an additional organizational period in brain differentiation, we included both prepubertal children and adolescents with GD in our studies. First, we measured brain activation upon exposure to androstadienone, a putative male chemo-signal which evokes sex differences in hypothalamic activation (women > men). We found that hypothalamic responses of both adolescent girls and boys diagnosed with GD were more similar to their experienced gender than their birth sex, which supports the hypothesis of a sex-atypical brain differentiation in these individuals. At the structural level, we analyzed both regional gray matter (GM) volumes and white matter (WM) microstructure using diffusion tensor imaging. In cisgender girls, larger GM volumes were observed in the bilateral superior medial frontal and left pre/postcentral cortex, while cis-gender boys had more volume in the bilateral superior-posterior cerebellum and hypothalamus.

Within these regions of interest representing sexually dimorphic brain structures, GM volumes of both GD groups deviated from the volumetric characteristics of their birth sex towards those of individuals sharing their gender identity. Furthermore, we found intermediate patterns in WM microstructure in adolescent boys with GD, but only sex-typical ones in adolescent girls with GD. These results on brain structure are thus partially in line with a sex-atypical differentiation of the brain during early development in individuals with GD, but might also suggest that other mechanisms are involved. Indeed, using resting state MRI, we observed GD-specific functional connectivity in the visual network in adolescent girls with GD. The latter is in support of a more recent hypothesis on alterations in brain networks important for own body perception and self-referential processing in individuals with GD.

Abstract below from a follow up that Bakker did in 2023

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39029340/

Abstract

This review has been based on my invited lecture at the annual meeting of the Society for Behavioral Neuroendocrinology in 2023.

Gender incongruence is defined as a marked and persistent incongruence between an individual's experienced gender and the sex assigned at birth. A prominent hypothesis on the etiology of gender incongruence proposes that it is related to an altered or less pronounced sexual differentiation of the brain. This hypothesis has primarily been based on postmortem studies of the hypothalamus in transgender individuals. To further address this hypothesis, a series of structural and functional neuroimaging studies were conducted in the Amsterdam cohort of children and adolescents experiencing gender incongruence. Additional research objectives were to determine whether any sex and gender differences are established before or after puberty, as well as whether gender affirming hormone treatment would affect brain development and function. We found some evidence in favor of the sexual differentiation hypothesis at the functional level, but this was less evident at the structural level.

We also observed some specific transgender neural signatures, suggesting that they might present a unique brain phenotype rather than being shifted towards either end of the male-female spectrum. Our results further suggest that the years between childhood and mid-adolescence represent an important period in which puberty-related factors influence several neural characteristics, such as white matter development and functional connectivity patterns, in both a sex and gender identity specific way. These latter observations thus lead to the important question about the possible negative consequences of delaying puberty on neurodevelopment. To further address this question, larger-scale, longitudinal studies are required to increase our understanding of the possible neurodevelopmental impacts of delaying puberty in transgender youth.

Oh my actual god…i have just realised

barbie i wasnt calling what you said bollocks….i was saying bollocks because I had forgotten to link the quote I was responding to,

at least the first time, the second time i deffo got carried away and said it was bollocks

By transition do you mean surgery?

If that's what people are desperate enough to do then let them but not on the NHS. I'm not convinced it'll make them any happier although I'm open to having my opinion changed.

As a previous poster has said it can't change their biological sex and how they get to describe themselves.

On London cab drivers showing neurocognitive changes, there are many eg
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34914151/

No

Thank you! I shall put that in the Break it down thread for reference.

I support therapy and mental health support for those with all kinds of dysphoria, be it an ED or issues with ‘gender’

Any surgery or hormone treatment should be done privately, just like any other elective cosmetic surgery, the NHS is on its knees, so if Dave wants breast implants he can pay for them himself just like women do.

I won’t call transwomen she because they are cosmetically altered men, but I will use they and their chosen name, but I don’t want anyone with a penis in my changing facilities, hospital bays or sports competitions where size/strength is an issue.

I don’t hate transwomen (I do have TW friends) but I am angry at the way the TRAs have mansplained womanhood and made ‘gender’ more important than biological sex. Clothes are clothes, wear whatever you’re comfortable in, I don’t care. But don’t get done up in your kink-gear and claim it’s comfy or it’s because you’re really a girl. No Barry, it’s a fetish, go do it with your fetish friends, don’t strut around in your parody of femininity like it’s all innocent, because we know it’s not.

No one can change sex, but we can have cosmetic surgery to mimic the opposite sex. I could have surgery to reduce the signs of aging, but it won’t mean I’m actually 35 again. Same goes for a woman having a mastectomy and pseudopenis created, or a man having breast implants and a blind fistula where his cock used to be.

They may have said that but the study showed no such thing. They found no difference pre-Triptorelin treatment and differences post-Triptorelin treatment. Triptorelin is known to impact the brain.

But ultimately, the study also showed men with trans identities had brains that sat with ranges for male brains.

“But ultimately, the study also showed men with trans identities had brains that sat with ranges for male brains.”

Whoever first used that study as an argument for brains being different really were stretching in over reach. And yet we see this study mentioned on FWR every couple of weeks or so lately. It really must be doing the rounds again somewhere else on the internet.

Having seen a poster who claimed to be an academic post it and who supported the conclusion as being valid and strong recently, I now have a lower opinion of academics. Not controlling for same sex attracted males was a significant oversight and confounding issue.

Yet, here we are discussing it again. Even better, being told to provide evidence that these male people don’t have brains that are more ‘female’ than ‘male’. Ummm … the study shows that the grouping of female brain scans fell into a significant range from male brain scans.

You are being taken in by extremists.

Not every trans person believes they have actually changed biological sex...most would probably say they've changed gender which is a social construct.

I am aware not everyone believes in gender.

However we live in a pluralist society. As an atheist for example, I respect that others have beliefs that I disagree with. I don't believe in God, but I don't think someone who does is mentally unwell and should be sacked.

Personally I think it's perfectly reasonable to call someone "they" if you have a problem with a pronoun request. I don't see using "she" in a day to day context as lying as I would be referring to the "gender" they believe themselves as having.

Or misleading others in a day to day context as people are aware of the existence of trans people and others with these beliefs.

Same as I wouldn't see it misleading to call someone a Christian if I don't believe in Christ. Or perhaps sometimes I talk about God with a religious relative in distress.

Society has frequently isolated, discriminated and considered mentally unwell against beliefs seen as unacceptable whether that's atheism or homosexuality.

Even the gender critics here must acknowledge the possibility they might be proven wrong (or right) with scientific research?

We also observed some specific transgender neural signatures, suggesting that they might present a unique brain phenotype rather than being shifted towards either end of the male-female spectrum. Our results further suggest that the years between childhood and mid-adolescence represent an important period in which puberty-related factors influence several neural characteristics, such as white matter development and functional connectivity patterns, in both a sex and gender identity specific way. These latter observations thus lead to the important question about the possible negative consequences of delaying puberty on neurodevelopment.

That paper (which I skimmed) was interesting in how difficult it is to make conclusions about ‘sex brain differences’ apart from size in that they used proxies including asking a spatial awareness question that males are better at than females and tested responses to a male pheromone, but which feels like a bit of a reach in prepubescent teens. Plus the author admits it’s a small sample size and the direction of cause and effect is debatable. What is clear, is the concern about delaying puberty.

Even the gender critics here must acknowledge the possibility they might be proven wrong (or right) with scientific research?

Wrong about what?

There will never be more than two sexes. It will never be possible to change sex.