I saw this by chance

[agestagerage]

https://weareluna.app/questions/periods-and-hormones/hi-my-school-has-an-open-room-toilet-that-you-jus/

I was looking at an app for teens for my DS and stumbled on this anonymous question.

I’m not sure the answer is fair, any thoughts?

It was reported in Scotland that girls at one school were going to the nearby supermarket to use the toilets there rather than use the gender neutral ones in the school.

How on earth has this been allowed to happen?!!

Thank you @Keeptoiletssafe and @Brainworm @OldCrone
Very informative.

In light of the teen girls questions on the Luna Website, I am wondering if there has been any research as to how these types of toilets are affecting young girls at school. Does anyone know if any research or impact report was done before the decisions were made to install these kind of facilities?

No. But many have gone ahead and built that design anyway. An article (now amended) was written by a toilet sales company saying that this layout was fine. Many schools also had to install cctv trained on the open area of the toilets for ‘security’ - so the mixed sex design was clearly not ‘fine’ from the off.

Yes, however school design has pushing what is meant by a room or cubicle for a while. All those photos are from current schools.

Also I would say that it is dangerous to have a room secured from the inside. That implies it can’t be unlocked. All school toilet doors should be able to be unlocked and the doors pulled outwards so you can reach a pupil that has collapsed.

Of course, my argument is that is a retrospective safety measure. Most important is to be able to see that a child is having a medical emergency as soon as possible. Or is being assaulted inside the cubicle.

It is an essential safety measure to have toilet door gaps when a typical secondary school will have at least a dozen pupils with conditions such as diabetes, epilepsy and heart conditions.

That, of course, means single sex toilets with a single sex area beyond the individual cubicle. Like the set of toilets most of us remember.

There was no research that I have come across which is why I did a FOI to the Department of Education.

My DS's school in England currently has toilets exactly like this so it's certainly something that is still happening.

When I looked into it and took a complaint as far as the Board of Governors it seemed that the school could do what they wanted as we could find any organisation to enforce the law. The school lied, redefined terms and basically dismissed all complaints but neither the LEA, Ofsted or DfE would admit jurisdiction.

I’m wondering whether it would be worth posting on a board with more traffic?

I really don’t like the idea that young girls are being forced to feel embarrassed, we know how mature teen boys are! I am also very surprised the website has suggested coughing to mask the noise or flushing the loo unnecessarily!

This is disproportionately affecting girls.

As part of our complaint to the school we mentioned that we knew of a student that had epilepsy and frequently had fits, therefore her safety was compromised by the floor to ceiling mixed sex cubicles but they dismissed that as an issue for her.

Do you have that in writing?

Yes. The attitude of schools and rush to install mixed sex toilets to the detriment of girls (and boys who want privacy) has disgusted me. Being a teenager is hard enough without schools losing their mind in such a way.

This is the company who has promoted similar designs that have been used in schools in America. He is referenced in some UK consultation toilet design documents. Everytime I read the word ‘inclusive’ I know what design I am about to see! It is not keeping children safe.
https://www.stalled.online

Possibly. We went through the complaints process several years ago and hit a brick wall.

The attitude of schools and rush to install mixed sex toilets to the detriment of girls (and boys who want privacy) has disgusted me.

I do wonder if this falls into that area that so much trans stuff does - in that no-one can actually believe it's happening.

I read about it on here, but I do find it a little bit hard to believe.

The concept of mixed-sex toilets is daft enough, but in schools? Come on, pull the other one.

So they have found a solution for trans people without looking at the implications the changes would have on protected characteristics of sex or numbers collapsed/ill people within toilets.

This reminds me, I took my DS to a sport event last year and it was held in the sports building of a large school. I went to the toilets and felt very uncomfortable because they were effectively toilet stalls within an alcove of a main corridor. The stalls were not floor to ceiling and wash basins outside.

I don’t remember whether I was in a single sex area or not but I do remember feeling vulnerable and exposed.

Exactly. Although they haven’t really found a solution for anyone. Because the first place everyone heads to when they feel ill is the toilet. And the process of elimination means you are more likely to have a medical emergency. 11% of cardiac arrests happen on the toilet for example.

Then there’s the problem of assaults. In 2015/6 the BBC and government discussed how there was 600 rapes inside schools over a three year period. That’s over 1 every school day. The example given at the time was a store cupboard. I have read examples of being in disabled toilets. Given these horrendous figures, why create more private mixed sex spaces in schools? Where’s the safeguarding?

Disgusting response from the school. One in 100 children have epilepsy and the teenage years are a common time for them to start. But I have heard similar from a parent of a child with diabetes worried about hypos too.

Sadly 100% true in the secondary schools in our area. The article I mentioned above introduced the false idea that if you make a cubicle (standard small toilet size, thin laminated partitions) with floor to ceiling door and partitions, you can legitimately call it a room and therefore pretend it is a proper unisex toilet. Apparently having a handwashing basin inside this ‘room’ is optional (if you squint hard and cherrypick certain words from the legislation and ignore other key words) so ‘apparently’ having a communal mixed sex handwash area outside your mixed sex cubicles is fine.

With cctv.

Yes. I was disgusted with the response of the school in many ways. They showed themselves to have zero integrity, zero understanding of safeguarding, zero understanding of the differences between the sexes or care for the distress of many students. This seems to be common.

Some schools have actually tried heat detectors inside the toilet cubicles too! As the pupils said, they’re like cameras so they avoid the toilets. There’s also systems which send an alert if there’s certain noises so an operator can speak to you. I would be afraid to fart!

A door gap means the whole cubicle is easier to clean, you can check how many are in the cubicle and if someone is in trouble. Better for ventilation and fire evacuations.

Some schools have actually tried heat detectors inside the toilet cubicles too! As the pupils said, they’re like cameras so they avoid the toilets. There’s also systems which send an alert if there’s certain noises so an operator can speak to you. I would be afraid to fart!

So they are trying to use high tech (and therefore fallible) mechanisms to solve a problem which shouldn't exist in the first place.

Yes!
It’s amazing what lengths and expense schools have gone to when they could just have single sex toilets with door gaps. Safer, cheaper and easier to clean.

safety and biological sex based dignity relegated to nowhere.