Non-binary child major rupture in relationship

[Goldenpatchwork]

I have been as supportive as possible but dc and I had major fall out yesterday over issue of misgendering and ‘top surgery’.

This issue has been ongoing for several years. I see their psychological pain, and change my position on the surgery. Then the crisis passes and DC does nothing to progress their decision, and we’re back to square one - me questioning the politics of a community that promotes surgery and the articulation and simplification of the procedure.

DC is angry because I keep changing my mind. I respond because I change my mind in response to their pain but revert back to original scepticism when they have taken no action and I am relieved they haven’t. They are giving themselves time to contemplate.

It all came to a head last night and our relationship is further fractured. I don’t know when I have contact again. It’s really light touch now.

I can’t do anything but let it run its course. However, I feel I am being use a battering ram for DC’s actually being captured by the ideology.

Having written this perhaps I should grateful that I am perceived as the barrier. It’s delaying a life changing decision.

I feel such huge sense of grief.,

Oh, forgot the 'mutilation' canard which is always such a tonic to hear from feminist women.

Here we go with the obsession with breasts.

Hard to believe but many women are flat chested.

And for centuries nobody turned round and accused them of not being of the female sex!

But in a way this confirms almost that the media obsession with women's breast have turned them into something some women dont want to be associated with. Because men have made them the ultimate sign of being female. Accept of course when women are breast feeding and then men just dont want to see that in public!

Would you say the same if she was deranged enough to want to cut her legs off? Pluck out her own eyes? Surely at some point you accept the person isn’t compos mentis and needs to be protected from their delusions?

There are women removing their breasts and thinking that means society will see them as ‘non-binary’. As if flat-chested women don’t exist/. It’s lunacy off every scale. Where was the ‘NB’ phenomenon at any other point in human history?

Your emotions aren't real to her.

Yes. That's also what I'm picking up from @nbartist. I was surprised at how angry @nbartist's post made me feel, how opposite of "comfortable" it's left me. And I think this captures why it angered me so much: the child's self-absorption in their own feelings about their body and minimising her mother's feelings. Taking her mother's words at face value, no curiosity about what it cost her mother to stay "close" and "accept".

Though to be fair I don't suppose I was any better in my twenties. The old folks were my background, the cause of my problems, and the supporting cast to the fascinating drama of my own feelings. I had zero sense of proportion.

the most important thing for me is that she doesn't mean it to deny me my identity or to make a point.

Heaven forbid your mother should have an opinion about your "identity". What would it do, blow your head off? You still need that validation from her. Your mother is very good at making the best of things.

the ability to just get dressed and go out without feeling the need to bind or hide has been amazing

Trouble is, that is poor psychology. There were choices. You could have decided not to bind or hide and still exercised and gone to the gym and even worn tight T shirts regardless. Like other women do. It's not that all other women felt something so very different from what you felt, or even that they all felt it less strongly than you felt it. It's that they chose a different way to cope. It's hard to do, but defy the "need" and get out there and the need fades; give in to it and hide away from what scares you and it grows. You fed your need over the years and it grew. With a whole new ideology about being "non-binary" to justify it to yourself.

Sure, after a few years you knew what you wanted. But you didn't just observe yourself and discover something that was already there. You spent those five years on the waiting list embedding that need into yourself.

I'm sorry @Goldenpatchwork - I guess that's not very reassuring for you.

A couple of comments make wonder whether DC is stuck in a denial of adulthood. The same mechanism that triggers syndromes such as anorexia.

Perhaps the fallout was me ‘again’ unintentionally holding up a mirror to the inconsistencies in their thinking, and this seriously unnerves them.

They have an amazing relationship with their dad, which I am envious of whilst also seeing that he agrees with everything unquestionably so the emotional support. I know the emotionally supportive is really he doesn’t care enough to think a more deeply about what’s going on for fear it will interrupt his safe routine..

Lots of great advice in this thread.

Above all remember in a sense this is nothing new. Your feelings are parallel to parents of a girl with anorexia or self harm in one sense. In another of being a parent seeing your child being tricked into a cult or a gang of risk taking youngsters.

Those situations are horrific because it seems like nothing you say has any effect. The thing is this one combines those feelings together and on top you have people in authority telling you that trying to stop your child doing this is wrong.

There is the terrifying possibility your very opposition is the thing which is driving kids to extremes - the attraction of rebelling against parental authority is real. So you have to thread the complex line of truth telling and the dangers of driving your kids away. No easy solutions, just remember you are not alone. Lots of people you can vent to here.

mutilation' canard? A rumour or story?

@fromorbit I’m beginning to wonder whether the anger of DC is counterintuitive. Angry that I have given them the means to pro but it’s been used against me. Perhaps their Dad says all the right things but practically blocks any progress by an absence of any practical support. So simple really.

‘Pro’ - proceed

Hm, is it possible to reframe what your DH (ex?) is doing more positively: that he is validating DC's feelings while not enabling her with resources to act on them? He's not blocking her, but if DC wants to act on her feelings and ideas she's going to have to take the whole practical responsibility to make it happen herself? Which is after all what an adult does.

Or am I misunderstanding?

It's interesting isn't it that it's always girls wanting to remove the visible signs of their biological sex ? With double mastectomy.
Never seen threads about biological boys wanting their penises removed so they can be non binary.
It's just awful...OP...I hazard a guess your DD is not sure...hence why she hasn't gone ahead yet. And she feels insecure in your love so the provoking the argument is to check you'll still love her whatever.
I'd second the approach of lots of reassurance about how you love her whatever and if she brings up the subject just say " it's your body darling, it's not up to me to choose for you but personally I think you can be non binary without surgery. Infact I see you as non binary...I just see you as a lovely young person"

Absolutely, I'm happy to help!

After the five year wait, the first thing I had was a psychological assessment, in which I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria and deemed fit to proceed with the decision to have surgery. My mother also had a video call as part of this evaluation, explaining my dysphoria had persisted since childhood. They asked why I wanted a double mastectomy, what it would change about my life, my sexuality and relationships, and whether or not I would be happy with a breast reduction instead. It's worth noting that at this point, I was switched to private care, though I believe the process is pretty much the same with the NHS.

Secondly, I had a consultation. This involved taking some photos, talking through my options. There are a few different methods of double mastectomy, some more invasive and scarring than others. Again, the surgeon made sure that this is what I wanted, and I looked through photos of some of his previous results. Since both the surgeon and I were happy to proceed, we set a date for a few months time. I was asked my preference on timing, and that was taken into consideration. I could have had it earlier, but recovery in the heat of the summer sounded pretty miserable, so I waited until autumn. In the week before the surgery I met the anaesthetist, and once again with the surgeon, to make sure I understood the plan and that I was happy to go ahead.

I hope that answers some of your questions! I appreciate others have suggested an AMA, which I have considered in the past, but I find often the questions on this subject are not as respectful there as they have been on this thread.

TBH it raises questions for me. Mostly why cosmetic surgery isn’t routinely offered to patients with Body Dysmorphic Disorder. Indeed it’s seen as a contradiction by many surgeons. Sorry. I’m glad you’ve found some kind of happiness, but as someone with many BDD traits, much more severe in my teens and 20s, who is now in their 50s I’m very glad surgery wasn’t offered.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, maybe we as a society are just working shit out and it's not all that deep.

For some people being a woman is really important and maybe having breasts is for them an important part of that. Maybe it's not important for other people. Perhaps we'll all decide that being non binary was a fad but we'll have more women who have decided they don't want breasts, thanks.

Women have breast reductions because they are physically uncomfortable, they feel they negatively impact how people treat them and they can't wear the clothes they want, and that's pretty much the same reason people have top surgery. And that may seem extreme to some people and 'Oh my god, I'd never do that', but maybe it's not so big a deal to others.

This is no threat to womanhood, we're never going up see significant numbers of people going for that option but I think it should be there.

I hope that answers some of your questions! I appreciate others have suggested an AMA, which I have considered in the past, but I find often the questions on this subject are not as respectful there as they have been on this thread.

Thank you for considering it, and of course keep yourself safe.

What did this achieve?

That's exactly my view. It's heartbreaking.

Gosh. Straight to surgery, no prolonged psychotherapeutic input? That is so irresponsible on the part of the surgeon.

I met someone with body dysmorphic disorder, after they attempted suicide. They had paid for their own (extensive) plastic surgery. I always wonder why one type of dysmorphia gets free plastic surgery, and one doesn’t.
I still think you can do what you like to yourself, if you want to pay for it, but it’s not for the NHS.

@nbartist thank you for your further. I am very pleased the thread continues to be a respectful place of sharing of views. Your contribution is really valuable to me.

DC has received a diagnosis of gender dysphoria from an NHS consultant. Has engaged in counselling. Does this mean they could pursue surgery now if they wish to go private? Or are there further stages they need to comply with in order to access surgery?

From a mildly historic perspective the discussion of non binary reminds me of the style and identity debates of lesbians in the 1980s and 90s when androgyny was all the rage. To dress like a lesbian was to have short hair, little wire-rimmed specs, a white boxy tee shirt, a blazer, jeans and doc marten boots.

While I signed up to the docs, shoes rather than boots, the rest wasn’t for me and in the community I was eyed a tad suspiciously. Odd, since being same-sexed attracted to me had very little to do with how I presented on the outside.

The great thing about the fashion side was that you could row back on the uniform and many did as the years passed. My fear with the advance of cosmetic techniques is that an identity statement can now be permanent. Just because you can, does not mean you should.

With our teen kids, I have said have at it, but nothing permanent, because life. And there is nothing more inevitable than change.

@Bobbymoore123 you asked what did it achieve…hopefully @SnoopyPajamas will answer but I hope it’s ok to give my tuppence worth….

I imagine that it allowed Snoopy to stay rooted in reality and true to herself and to live her life knowing that she did what she felt was in the best interests of her loved one.

I cannot imagine agreeing with a loved one that the earth is flat just to keep them happy.

In the same way I cannot imagine agreeing with a loved one that they have an inner gendered essence and that that means serious surgery is needed.

Many of the same issues that lead to anorexia. We really do need better understanding of this as a mental health condition.

I cannot imagine agreeing with a loved one that the earth is flat just to keep them happy.

For me it feels more like having a loved one who believes they can fly. Should I agree that they should jump from a first floor window to keep them happy?

I know it may be hard to accept that they are taking a path in life different from the one you expected for them, but as parents, the main goals should be keeping your children happy and fed and loved; if your child wishes to get top surgery there's not much you can do to stop them, nor do I think you should if this is something that will make them feel better about themselves and their body. You say you can see the psychological pain that they are in - evidently this is something they would benefit from. Besides, they are now an adult, no longer living with you; they have the autonomy to make their own decisions, even if it's not something you fully understand.

Try talking to them about what they want to achieve with their transition, without accusation or guilt. You may not fully understand why your child is doing this, but I would say a little respect and support goes a long way.