TikTok feminists

[TheresABootOnMyNeck]

Since the SC ruling I’ve been algorithmed into feminist tiktok, many with humongous followings, nearly all with pronouns neatly displayed.

They collectively have some very astute observations on men which, being a masculine looking and dressing lesbian working in a male environment and seeing these men “in the wild” as it were, I wholeheartedly agree with. In this way I truly appreciate their input. There are posts that make me wince due to their accuracy, and MRAs flock like flies to a cowpat to correct them and try to prove how awful women are, which is usually a sign that they’re on the right track and men wade in to defend their behaviour.

Put a man in a dress though, and he is magically a woman, is no risk to women at all, despite evidence to the contrary, all of his misogynistic ways disappear unless they make TW look bad (like Lily Tino) and then they cancel them. Those who question the ideology are literally Nazis and bigots. And views that are not TWAW are right wing and inherently violent towards women (the male kind). This is a hill they would willingly die on.

Why? How can they, in one breath see what so many men are like and speak so eloquently about it, yet at the same time are so blind to what trans stuff does to women?

Please help me to understand.

Do you actually want to understand or do you want a thread where everyone ridicules them?

Lots of people disagree with the prevailing viewpoint on trans issues found here. I'm not sure why this is a surprise to you.

It's a very polarising topic.

I want to understand. I’m not ridiculing them.

It’s not a surprise, but having been GC since 2016 I’ve increasingly not understood the disconnect within feminists.

It’s a very polarised issue, I know that.

I’d still like to understand what is behind this disconnect, where intelligent and educated women drop everything they know about men when that man identifies as a woman.

They would probably look at this forum with similar disbelief that anyone could think the way some people on here do.

I think that people have vastly different life experiences, social circles and brains are wired differently which means that people think about issues in different ways. I don't think they necessarily have a "disconnect". They just have come to a different conclusion to you.

Yes but, what different life experiences, what different brain wiring? Just saying 'they have come to a diffferent conclusion to you because they have come to a diffferent conclusion to you' isn't particularly helpful,

I guess that generation think that men pretending to be women are doing it out of a kind of comradeship. They’ll all know a few who show no indication of malice or fetish. They’re informed that its progressive and hip; and only the extreme right wing would not embrace it.
In your twenties it’s hard to see things objectively and your contemporaries have the last word. Either side, you have the more jaded, older generation that come in with experience and hindsight; and then the younger generation, with their fresh eyes aghast at this lunacy.

I’m sorry I don’t believe this.
There is evidence of male pattern criminality, evidence of everyday misogyny that these feminists speak out about every day, they can see it more clearly than most, until it comes in a dress and makeup - then these women are literally blinded by it.

I wonder if there’s an element of agism creeping in as well, wanting to create their own path rather than automatically joining the path that’s well worn by the time they hit menopause!

It’s tiktok.

Image is more important than real life.

#bekind could have been specifically developed to appeal to young women. Part of the socialisation of girls is to be kind and nurturing and helpful and kind.

#bekind is also a thought-stopper: even if you have an inkling that there are huge flaws in the trans dogma, you don't pursue them because that would be unkind, it would be unkind to say to a transwoman that it's impossible to change sex, so they are really, factually, still a man.

The kind thing to do is to go along with anything because facts and reality are unkind and therefore phobic, and very very socially unpopular.

We are also in a 'postfactual' era when inconvenient truths, no matter how well supported by science and logic and reason, can be dismissed with a wave of the hand, and the serious scientists and researchers attacked and undermined.

Maybe it has been easier for older women to resist genderwoo - greater life experience, more confident in the objective validity of their own opinions, and fewer fucks to give about being unpopular.

I know, but this stance has been seen over and over again in libfems before TikTok was the platform it currently is. It’s not a new thing.

That's a complete over simplification though isn't it? It's the same as 'there's fault on both sides' brigade, when in some cases, there absolutely isn't. Truth matters, you can come to a different conclusion as much as you like and as often as you like, but it doesn't overide truth or facts.

The earth isn't flat but some people genuinely believe it is, that's their conclusion, but it is incorrect, it helps no one to pretend otherwise. It's the same with biological sex, it can't be changed, it's binary and immutable, some people come to a different conclusion, but it doesn't change the facts and it doesn't change the truth. No one is helped by pretending otherwise, that's why there are so many confused, vulnerable young people out there who have been sold a massive lie, and are now very angry and upset that the truth is being revealed.

Well no but I'm not sure how you would expect anyone to be able to explain why they think differently to you. You'd have to ask them rather than a forum of people who all share your views.

I actually don't think many people believe that biological sex can change.

I would say that most people on the TRA side believe that gender is more important than biological sex in most instances, whereas people on the opposite end of the spectrum think sex is more important than gender.

I blame the Americans.

So we just ignore facts then? We pretend they don't exist to avoid becoming unpopular? How far do you take it, do you pretend people with schizophrenia aren't mentally unwell?

I think TW are people like other people so they are a spectrum - some are nice, some are horrible. The tiktok feminists only see the nice ones - they think the horrible ones are exceptions. GC feminists spend more time worrying about the horrible ones.

I think most of the arguments on both sides are bad faith - for instance I don't believe tiktok feminists believe TW have changed biological sex as people on this thread are saying they do - and almost no one in RL gives a toss about who uses what toilet.

It’s a good question Boots. My TikTok feed is basically cats, a few GC accounts and an American black lesbian separatist so I’m fascinated by the thought of these feminists with complete and utter blind spots. I guess many of us have them but why do so many react to TW in this way??? Baffled.

Why would it be logical to think this?

At a basic level, being male or female has significant consequences for mammals, whether you are a human, a sheep or a rabbit.

On the other hand gender is ????

"I would say that most people on the TRA side believe that gender is more important than biological sex in most instances, whereas people on the opposite end of the spectrum think sex is more important than gender."

That's a bit motte and bailey. TRAs do not believe in ANY circumstance where sex matters. Those with a GC stance understand that in some circumstances biological reality matters.

I agree with @Justwrong68 and @MarieDeGournay

I don't think it's a case of being horrible or nice.

The concept of trans is completely subjective, so you don't even have a starting point to explain who it includes.

What one person would describe as 'being non-binary' , another would describe as 'not identifying with sexist stereotypes'. The only difference might be a perception that other people do identify with these stereotypes.

There's a very interesting concept in anthropology called the "ontological turn" where it's argued that people in different cultural groups don't just have differing belief systems, they actually exist in different realities to each other. When entrenched in one of these realities, it is impossible for them to comprehend anything outside that reality except through the lens of that reality, which is why people get so stuck in their points of view. So these women live in the reality where TWAW and everything flows from that, they don't question that because it's reality to them. Some significant shift would have to occur in their belief system/reality for them to come out of it (we used to have a word for that to do with getting to the top of a mountain but last time I used it someone got my comment removed so I'm not going to).

I agree with you MerryMouse that the concept of trans is subjective - I suspect there's some way to go before it settles.

I was responding to the original question why do tiktok feminists not see trans as bad and anti feminist. I think it's because they like and want to include the TW they know in their definition of feminism.

I think most of the arguments on both sides are bad faith - for instance I don't believe tiktok feminists believe TW have changed biological sex as people on this thread are saying they do - and almost no one in RL gives a toss about who uses what toilet.

this is interesting as in my experience the GC arguments tend to backed up with statistics and rational critical thinking. The only GC arguments in bad faith I’ve seen seem to be the ones where they take the piss out of TW. Also people in RL absolutely do care about who uses the women’s toilets. I know I do, but I would rarely say anything because I’m too scared of either being unkind or getting yelled at for being a bigot.

I agree with the OP that it blows my mind that otherwise seemingly intelligent people actually think ‘some’ women have penises! Whenever I’ve asked ‘how?’ I’m just told ‘it’s complicated’ or ‘I’m not here to educate you, go and find out for yourself’ which I have tried but drawn a blank so far!

And for the record, I would love to see this be the truth and am actively looking for proof as I really miss playing roller Derby but I would not dare go back as a gender critical woman.