Is there any duty for individuals to use the correct single sex spaces, legally speaking?

[MauraLabingi]

I understand the EA applies to businesses, organisations etc. They have to ensure the right people use the right toilets.

But say the swimming pool receptionist questions Mandy, who produces a birth certificate saying female (dated two years ago but obviously it could have been reissued for more than one reason). Does the receptionist have to let Mandy in, even though their senses tell them Mandy is male and Mandy has not been able to produce incontrovertible evidence to prove she is female (I understand that the only piece of paper that can now do that is a birth certificate which was issued within weeks of your date of birth)? I may be wrong!

So Mandy gets let in, and women complain that there's a man in the changing rooms. What does the swimming pool do? Mandy still insists Mandy is female. Is Mandy actually committing a crime (not under the EA obviously but under different legislation)?

Would the police sort it out? How would they be able to ascertain Mandy's true sex? If they are able to discover that Mandy is a man, would they prosecute/warn Mandy that it is illegal (if it is)?

Basically, can transwomen just keep trying to get into women's spaces without risk of legal consequence?

Sorry if this has been asked before but I read this board often and I haven't seen it discussed directly.

@MauraLabingi The receptionist is allowed to advise Mandy that they must provide proof that they were a woman at birth. How Mandy does that is on him.

His behaviour would be harassment (and indecent exposure if he started waving his penis around) and it's possible the police would come out. There would be a record of a gender recognition certificate being issued so his sex could still be proved but I don't know if any police force would make an effort to prosecute him.

I suspect we may be finding out because there’s a fair few Militant Mandys out there who really really want access to naked women to feel validated. I think PPs are right. Mandy can get done for voyeurism or flashing, though our very captured Police may prefer not to prosecute, but beyond that I don’t think there’s a legal duty on Mandy to be a decent human being. Moral, yes, legal, no.

I watched a webinar on the judgement by Weightmans solicitors last week.

It was very pro gender critical overall and talked about single sex spaces, but they advised that an individual could be vulnerable to a lawsuit if they challenged people who they suspected to be trans and their advice was pretty much 'don't challenge.'

@Lovelyview

You brushed on a really important point. It will now stop predators claiming to be trans and TIMS from parading their penis around in female changing rooms, as indecent exposure and voyerism has now become easier to prosecute since being trans is no longer a defence.

Presumably businesses will decide not to support customers who break the law? Stores ban shoplifters. The courts give serial offenders orders banning them from certain places (including women's changing rooms for male sex offenders).

If they are, then presumably businesses will decide that repeated visits from the police to deal with repeat offenders, let alone the threats of court action against the business for failing to obey the law is more trouble than its worth?

Of course - I'm sure trans people aren't claiming that some are incapable of obeying the law of the land? Men insisting on entering spaces where women and girls are undressed? Are they?

Do not agree individuals are not duty bearers and as long as they are not abusive are at liberty to challenge anyone in the wrong loo/changing room.

Is the webinar still available to be viewed?

I watched a recording of it through a link shared through my workplace.

There may a link to it out there in the ether but I can't share the link I have unfortunately :(

Take it up with Weightmans solicitors then, I guess.

Whittle already encourages and assists TRAs and other people to write a letter before action to businesses to ask for £2.5K or so to compensate for injured feelings or in response to a challenge or similar.

I don’t know if those who want a single sex space will also have recourse to this action in the absence of a challenge etc.

I think you're right and most forces wouldn't prosecute in the current political climate. However, if anyone were to find themselves in this situation, make a lot of noise about it online; with the supreme court precedent, it may be that people could look into private prosecution.

No problem, thank you 🙂

OneGrey- was it this webinar? If so, it’s publicly available.

https://www.weightmans.com/media-centre/podcasts/employment-insights-pod/the-definition-of-sex-in-the-equality-act/

On what grounds?

The trouble is, isn't that impossible to do these days? Say I (female) lose my birth certificate and get a new one reissued, what can I produce to prove I am female? Mandy also has a reissued birth certificate, but how can anyone know if it's been reissued because it was lost or because Mandy is actually male and had it changed to say female? How can the receptionist tell the difference between us in terms of proof?

A woman with a reissued birth certificate cannot prove she is female anymore can she. So if society supports a policy of 'make people prove they're female' and there's actually no guaranteed way to do that, then don't an absolutely tiny proportion of women who look masculine bear the cost of this by potentially being shut out when they shouldn't be? Would the police be required to dig into every instance?

It is absolutely ridiculous that people have been able to change birth certificates, but if they insist on doing this, an optional ID card should be available which proves your sex, for anyone who wants one.

@MauraLabingi You seem to be arguing that people cannot tell what biological sex is, even where a woman is masculine in appearance most women can.

We're returning to where we used to be - where people obeyed the law and the social contract and men respected the rights of women to undress, toilet etc away from the male gaze.

As I pointed out upthread, there will be the odd anti social male determined to access undressed women and girls and I've no doubt some of the emotionally incontinent transactivists may initially cause a fuss.

But the world knows that sex is binary, that only women give birth and (until recently) that men trying to access women undressing, on the toilet etc are of ill repute. The hysteria, the shouting and the wails will eventually disappear as the law is enforced and the message clear.

God, I hope you’re right…

No man is an island, people will know because they were at school with them or know their mum or whatever or used to work with them 20 years ago.

I think that is an important point.

I read the TransActual guidance about responding to the EHRC consultation, which is in the form of some suggested questions to ask (I think there's a thread about that) and what struck me was that many of the "gotcha" type questions started from the position that by default service providers would be inundated with an uncontrollable number of trans people who all need to be directed or redirected to the correct service - and how was a service provider to manage this. The answer is the same here: that trans people along with everyone else know their own sex and are expected to use the services they're entitled to use and keep out of the ones they're not.

The Equality Act was written from the point of view of enabling members of groups used to historical discrimination to be able to legally force their way into services and associations. It's badly structured from the point of view of keeping people out of services and associations that they're not entitled to use.

If enough people act in a way that means gatekeeping becomes a necessity to protect rights that need to be protected, then new legislation is going to be needed, and we're going to need the paperwork to stand behind that, for instance by repealing the GRA and reverting all passports, driving licences and other government ID back to biological sex.

TRAs like to use the difficulties in enforcement as a reason to loosen the rules; I think the difficulties in enforcement should mean an improvement in the tools available to do that enforcement.

There will be no obvious policing, but if an organisation or institution does nothing to deter male interlopers into female only spaces then they will run the risk of legal action, plus loss of public liability insurance.

Any man who perissts in trying to access female only spaces is clearly a wrong un' and risks charges of sexual harassment.

Up until recently we've relied on public common sense and respect for the privacy and dignity of others and for their discreet rights and provisions to ensure compliance.The social contract. Ideally this is where we will get back to when all of the hysteria has died down.

I am definitely not! In this scenario the receptionist knows they're talking to Mandy the man, but if Mandy continues to insist they are female, it is very difficult to keep refusing them IF there is no evidence you can request from them. If you could say, "Can I see your sex ID card please," they would not be able to argue with that. It would be easy and simple for the receptionist. If Mandy says "I chose not to apply for one" then the receptionist can easily say, "Sorry, but our policy is that if we ask for ID and you cannot provide it, you can't come in."
But it's really hard for the receptionist to say, "Sorry, I appreciate there is no way for you to prove your sex, but my eyes are telling me your mouth and nose are X distance apart and your voice is quite low so I'm 99.9% certain you're a man. It's a bit unfortunate that you can't prove your sex, because I suppose there's a 0.1% chance you're female. But I'm not letting you in either way."

Organisations need clearly defined policies. Not to just rely on the receptionist's personal assessment. The receptionist is likely to be correct of course. But I can't believe that everyone is really good at assessing sex in the trickier cases. You say that most women can, and I agree with you, but some men are rubbish! My husband and I were walking the other day and I saw a man and a woman walking together. He thought they were both women, even when pressed to look harder. It was so obvious to me that one was male. He finds it harder. There will be others like him out there, sitting on reception desks. They need policies. "If you are unsure, request xyz." Not "Okay Fred, I know you struggle with this, but just do your best, and if you get a few wrong ach well."

What I'm trying to say I suppose is that after all that's happened I don't think the social contract referred to by some pp will cut it. I think we need ID cards (optional) which people can use to prove their sex if needed.

Going back to proper sex ID on passports, driving licences and birth certs would of course be simpler, but if they won't do that, they should at least make it possible for people to prove their sex IF they want to.

We're certainly in difficulties if trans people are so out of control and unable to follow the law etc as discussed above. The unhinged protests and bullying of others - especially of women- is testament to that.
But society operates on the basis of conforming with the law, following the social contract and respecting the rights of others. I can't see any other option other than to expect everyone to abide by the law - no exceptions for sacred castes or sad / out of control men. Organisations should expect their clients, staff, customers etc to follow the law and if they refuse then they'll need to take appropriate action.

If men's desire to access women and girls undressed is so powerful that they're unable to control their actions, that yet again demonstrates how dangerous to society transactivism is. Their current modus operandi of topless demos and literally pissing on society isn't winning friends or support. I can't see an out of control man bullying Mandy on reception and demanding that he gets access to the women's changing room where teenage schoolgirls are undressing for their swimming lesson will find much support.

Society just has to firmly say no to these men.