Does Imane Khelif even have a DSD?

[BeLemonNow]

Giving the widespread reporting of a previous test showing Imane Khelif is biologically male / XY is there actually any evidence as to whether or not they even have a Disorder of Sexual Development (DSD). Or is this straightforward fraud? I know there was speculation before...

By DSD, going by NHS information, in this case I mean XY chromosomes with an abnormality causing a baby's genitals to look female (but not a DSD where there's XY and some sort of penis even if smaller than normal). To be clear, I am aware that these differences are usually apparent by puberty. It looks likely Imane went through male puberty.

Apologies if this has been covered in a different thread, but I cannot see it anywhere. I am aware that the only IOC criteria to compete at the Olympics was a female passport - ridiculous really - but that Imane has been claiming to be living as a woman since birth.

we quite often mock the whole "..identifies as..." thing on here, tied up as it is with arbitrary social constructs around clothing, makeup, etc, but it does seem to be a very consistent thing, all of these DSD males who've popped up in women's athletics, boxing, and football seem to have a really strong aversion to stereotypically female styling, whether it's hair, makeup, clothing, they just seem to avoid it at all costs. maybe it's just because they know the human eye isn't accustomed to seeing such things on a male-shaped physique and skull, and that they paradoxically 'pass' better as female by dressing male, but just maybe it's something deeper?

Failure to call Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui and Francine Niyonsaba men meant that they were all three medalists in the women’s 800m at the Rio Olympics. Which is more disrespectful, calling them men or the disrespect to the women who missed out?

Being “respectful” to men with DSDs has caused decades of harm to women, not just the boxers who had to face Khelif and Ting last year. By being “respectful” and saying all these athletes were in fact women because that’s how they were raised led to decades on inaction on protecting the women’s category in sport.

My understanding is that Stonewall finally stopped because organisations representing people with DSDs asked them to leave them out if it.

It depends entirely on the DSD. For example, someone with Jacobs syndrome has a chromosomal DSD (XYY) that mostly doesn’t affect fertility. Many remain undiagnosed.
ETA that’s before you consider assisted conception techniques which are helpful for some people with DSDs.

That surprises me, because TRAs were doing it for years while the DSD community were asking to be left out of it. After all, it's nothing to do with DSDs and it's dishonest, exploitative and insulting.

It does seem to be on the wane though. I've noticed a resurgence in "gender neutral toilet in ur home LOL" though, from people to whom the last eight years didn't happen.

Being respectful does not mean people with a male puberty should be in women’s sports. Some people probably think it should (eg Caster Semenya), but I don’t think anyone on here thinks that. So you are preaching to the converted as regards sports.

And you don’t think that your judgemental posting should be considered in anyway an attempt to compel others? I see.

Merely pointing out that the fact that a court has declared someone biologically female does not compel you to pretend to believe it. But if this was a man with a GRC, you could be punished for your refusal. Which seems an odd way round, given people can't help having DSDs.

46XYY is not a DSD. It’s a chromosomal aneuploidy. They are unequivocally male.

DSD is almost as broad a term as 'illness' (which eg ranges from the life threatening to the trivial). In gender debates it's very unhelpful to ever bring up the minor DSD's when we're only really interested in the tiny minority of really hardcore ones which can sometimes make it hard to discern the sex of a person with certainty without recourse to scientific screening.

And I agree with you on dealing with people with DSDs at a personal clinical level.

But how do you “respectfully” say male people are women while also arguing they shouldn’t be in women’s sport?

Why?

Its context around the "should" attaching a "BeKind" puts it into emotional manipulation and sometimes the personal bias skews posts.

MN now choose to allow people to pick pronouns prior it was a reason for a deletion.

In the Uk the police forces were busy tweeting public service messsges of believe, profess or risk getting a police record for a non-crime.

I’ve read that the incidence of ‘gender dysphoria’ among those with 5-ARD who are raised female is very high, about 63%.
So that might be a factor.

Of course that also means 37% must feel that female is a fit for them. I think it’s important to be aware of that.

Could you stop please?

Don't tell Helleofabore to stop. She's by far one of the best posters we have on here.

Yes I agree they’re unequivocally male.
It’s still a DSD, as is any condition with an atypical sex chromosome arrangement. Turners is another, unequivocally female.

There isn’t any confusion around the sex of the person for most people who have DSDs. The ones which cause confusion are rarer.

This is still focusing on feelings. In some instances, that matters. But organising society primarily on the basis of how happy or otherwise somebody feels about things doesn't seem useful or feasible.

I don’t think you can call a DSD minor just because the sex isn’t in question. There are often quite significant medical implications.

I clarified upthread that when I spoke about identity wrt DSDs I was speaking about those DSDs where there is a genotype/phenotype mismatch, or genital ambiguity, not about conditions like Jacobs.

In this case I was replying to a pp who was querying how people who are fathers can say they’ve a DSD.

When it comes to sports, I disagree.

It was advocate groups for those male athletes with DSDs that led to the decision to ban sex testing at the Olympics. This was before the major push for male people with transgender identities to be included with surgery. There were however, some of the same names on the papers and in the discussions at the IOC in both decisions, always advocating for male inclusion without consideration for the harm to female athletes.

And the result in the Rio games happened regardless of any transgender rights activation. There was no way that this result in Rio was not going to cause significant discussion and campaigning to change this.

The influence in sport has been from their (those male athletes with DSDs) source of power drawing on this concept of ‘respect’. There was enough ‘power’ supporting those male athletes to make those changes and for female athletes to be described as hateful if they complained. Those male athletes had the power and female people had none in that decision back in the late 1990s.

I say identity is important when it comes DSDs and that they can sometimes be very complex, not that male people are women.

Did you stop when we pointed it out? No. You didn’t. You kept on going and then you denied you were doing it.

It is focusing on feelings. And keeping language clear is vital to creating the change for protecting female sports.

Let’s remember it was emotional reasoning that convinced the IOC to make the changes to allow firstly this specific group of male athletes to compete in female sports. Then came the same emotional reasoning to allow other male people to compete in female sports. We even saw McKinnon say that because people saw him as a female and used female language it would be cruel to exclude him and others from female sporting events.

These male athletes showed us exactly the power of that language demand.

I gave my opinion and also stated facts.
I’m sorry that we don’t see eye to eye on this subject, but you can’t stop people talking just because they don’t agree with you. I feel you’re bullying me at this stage with the continual sniping comments. That’s why I asked you to please stop. Not stop posting in general obviously (I think a pp was confused about this).

i will stop. But I also have been clear for pages that your posts were coming across as shaming, I even posted clear examples of your doing it.

Yet you are accusing me of bullying you. Do you see the hypocrisy there? I consider your post bullying . I doubt you will see it so I will stop.

you can’t stop people talking just because they don’t agree with you.

And yet that is exactly what you tried to do.

I feel you’re bullying me at this stage

Absolutely transparent. Nobody is fooled. Bullying you with excellent, substantiated counter points, do me a lemon.