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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
ItsCoolForCats · 01/06/2025 07:34

Thanks OP.

This bit was really interesting:

"But this ignores the Rashomon effect, named after the Japanese film in which four characters each view the same set of events very differently. We see horrible breaches of women’s safety, privacy and autonomy; they see occasional mild infringements, vastly overplayed by uptight prudes to isolate much more vulnerable people. We see children’s health permanently damaged by mad ideology; they see a cruel refusal to accept people for who they really are. We appeal to common sense and old familiar values; they think they are carrying out bold and noble experiments in living, ultimately freeing humanity from pointless divisions. And the more the establishment comes over to our side, the more we only seem to prove their point".

I have tried to view things through the eyes of the other side of this debate. To me it seems so clear cut - there is such an egregious violation of women and girls rights and boundaries happening. But then you see young women out marching in support of this violation, and it baffles me. But I guess, as KS explains above, they just this very differently to us, and I don't know how we bridge that divide.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/06/2025 07:46

We see horrible breaches of women’s safety, privacy and autonomy; they see occasional mild infringements, vastly overplayed by uptight prudes to isolate much more vulnerable people. We see children’s health permanently damaged by mad ideology; they see a cruel refusal to accept people for who they really are. We appeal to common sense and old familiar values; they think they are carrying out bold and noble experiments in living, ultimately freeing humanity from pointless divisions. And the more the establishment comes over to our side, the more we only seem to prove their point.

a very interesting article. I do wonder though how when the liberal establishment is in fact largely still on their side - the BBC is falling over itself to single handedly make up for the SC ruling, local & national government is wringing its hands and putting out statements of support, ditto the NHS, law firms are telling clients to wait for the guidance, unions are openly critical of the ruling snd saying it can be ignored - whether what she says is true. The only real change has been politicians (some) finally doing their job and sports bodies finally often grudgingly doing theirs. I doubt they thought the telegraph & the mail were on their side anyway

for me the real change had been their massive over reach and that’s entirely self inflicted. It’s the public finally going “I’m sorry what??” as the sunlight poured in when Dr Beth informed the world he was a biological woman or the eleventy billionth drag queen was interviewed by the bbc.

i think this years pride month will be chock full of the most vulnerable evah and wall to wall wailing - well that will be more sunlight!

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 01/06/2025 08:15

Thanks for the article, it's a good read, as it usually is from KS. We ignore the wounded beast at our peril, it's because all the LGB stuff doesn't concern the majority of people that the TQ+ers were able to slip this ideology in unnoticed until it was too late.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance", if we take our eye of the ball again, this madness will be back bigger and uglier than it was before.

But in the end reality will always win, humans don't invent reality, they're a part of it and this ideology is just too batshit crazy to do anything more than harm.
Post modernism seeks to destroy the modern world, if any of these ideologies that are underpinned by it succeed, then everyone who lives in the modern world loses, including the nutters who destroyed it.

borntobequiet · 01/06/2025 08:39

I always thought that it would be the pushing of this nonsense by schools and school leaders that would undermine this in the young as the majority recognise its inherent lack of logic and the unfairness it brings with it, plus they really don’t like being preached at. The movement spectacularly overreached itself, everywhere.
KS is right though, anyone wishing to continue with the “most oppressed” narrative will now at least have a teeny bit of justification for their complaints.

BettyBooper · 01/06/2025 09:11

It has always boiled down to the reality that a person cannot change sex for me. When reading counter trans arguments I can have real sympathy but it doesn't change this fact.

We need to concentrate on ensuring that this is clearly taught in all schools.

CarefulN0w · 01/06/2025 09:44

It’s a good article - and I agree with KS about not alienating people who believe they are on the side of righteousness. As we know, many of the young women who want to be kind are themselves vulnerable.

Talking about safety is always important, but I do occasionally get frustrated about how good us so called bigoted terfs are at prefacing every argument with people have a right to identify as they wish etc when the same courtesy is never extended by the other side.

There was a thread a few years ago about where the tipping point would be. I don’t think back then any of us foresaw the SC judgement or the particularly mad employment tribunals that would coincide with it and grab the public’s attention. What a lot of people did say though was that sport would be the pivot point. And it is sport that will grab the headlines - not women’s need for safe spaces and dignity.

Sport matters to men. The SC judgement provides the legal framework, the head stuff if you like, but I think sport will provide the heart. Along with the jokes and the stating of the bleeding obvious. The boxing saga also couldn’t have come at a better time. When the world doesn’t have to pretend that a man is a woman, the jig is up.

AlexandraLeaving · 01/06/2025 11:57

She really is good with words, isn’t she? It’s not just that I agree with her message, her writing is really stimulating to read too.

ItisntOver · 01/06/2025 12:13

archive

archive.ph/GUvBu

AlloftheTime · 01/06/2025 13:43

@ItisntOver thank you!

PermanentTemporary · 01/06/2025 13:49

That's a good article. Thank you.

There's going to be more of the posts I saw earlier this week on MN - essentially 'I would rather be in a women's toilet with transwomen than in the disgusting mixed sex toilet we've now got at work'. A lot of that in the future IMO.

ItisntOver · 01/06/2025 15:37

PermanentTemporary · 01/06/2025 13:49

That's a good article. Thank you.

There's going to be more of the posts I saw earlier this week on MN - essentially 'I would rather be in a women's toilet with transwomen than in the disgusting mixed sex toilet we've now got at work'. A lot of that in the future IMO.

No prospect, of course, that this might be the social moment to persuade everyone to be careful about how they use and leave a shared space. And how they respect the working conditions of the people who clean them.

Or that employers and facilities management of public buildings, theatres etc should choose to respect the need for single-sex provision and improve facilities for everyone.

PriOn1 · 01/06/2025 16:03

CarefulN0w · 01/06/2025 09:44

It’s a good article - and I agree with KS about not alienating people who believe they are on the side of righteousness. As we know, many of the young women who want to be kind are themselves vulnerable.

Talking about safety is always important, but I do occasionally get frustrated about how good us so called bigoted terfs are at prefacing every argument with people have a right to identify as they wish etc when the same courtesy is never extended by the other side.

There was a thread a few years ago about where the tipping point would be. I don’t think back then any of us foresaw the SC judgement or the particularly mad employment tribunals that would coincide with it and grab the public’s attention. What a lot of people did say though was that sport would be the pivot point. And it is sport that will grab the headlines - not women’s need for safe spaces and dignity.

Sport matters to men. The SC judgement provides the legal framework, the head stuff if you like, but I think sport will provide the heart. Along with the jokes and the stating of the bleeding obvious. The boxing saga also couldn’t have come at a better time. When the world doesn’t have to pretend that a man is a woman, the jig is up.

It seems to me that there is every sign that women’s rights in sports are being restored without it affecting any other area of transactivism.

KS could have been describing my daughter’s views in the paragraph @ItsCoolForCats and others quoted. What I would add is that, in the brief moments she and I managed to have a conversation, she acknowledged that she knew there were problems with aspects of transactivism, but I was still an appalling human being for calling it out in its entirety and “being mean”.

I think that these young women will only be persuaded either by directly observing the negative effects of a transactivist on something they value, or when the whole thing is truly acknowledged by everyone sane to have been a huge misstep.

I don’t think sports or prisons or anything of those aspects that seem so clearly unfair to us will do that. One or more of their transitioned lesbian friends waking up to the damage her medical transition has wrought and working out that those who drove her to and allowed her to transition are to blame might just. I think the medical aspect falling apart and it being recognized that thousands of young lesbian women have been irrevocably damaged in search of some pipe dream, driven by internalized homophobia might finally do it.

thestudio · 01/06/2025 16:11

There was a time when edgy subcultures revelled in - insisted on - their outsider status. It was almost the point.

From a socio and cultural perspective I guess that shifted because the driver came from within the establishment - middle-aged white men who didn't want to give up their insider privilege.

For that to be possible, identity had to trump structural oppression etc

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 01/06/2025 16:12

Why does Pride need to be "sponsored"? It's a march and a day out in the park. Put your costumes on and walk. Bring a bag of sandwiches and a drink. And make some nice banners.

One of the things I love about about feminist events is how gorgeous the banners are. Beautiful designs lovingly made. I'd be proud just walking down the street behind them. (And the cake. Oh, the cake!)

CarefulN0w · 01/06/2025 16:30

I do agree with you that at the moment sport is a separate arm, doing it’s own thing, but where I am a little more hopeful is that sport will do a lot of heavy lifting re no-debate. The majority of people have never believed that Transwomen are actually women, they just didn’t say it out loud.

Without being too pollyannaish, I think over time young people in thrall to gender identity will find that not only do fewer people agree with them than they think, but they are prepared to say so. The echo chambers of Uni will yield to the reality of the world of work, and while their mothers and aunts might still be bigoted auld terfs in their view, they may find the opinions of people closer to them in age more palatable.

It’s hard when it’s close to home - I have a DIL who thinks my views are harmful so I do get it.

zanahoria · 01/06/2025 17:40

"But this ignores the Rashomon effect, named after the Japanese film in which four characters each view the same set of events very differently"

That's not how I saw the film

zanahoria · 01/06/2025 17:48

One of the things that this whole episode has taught me is that there has been a corporate take over of virtually all social reform movements. They are no longer movements that have an energetic grass roots, that is the last thing they want but carefully managed by charities that have strong corporate backing. Stonewall does not have ordinary members but corporations can join.

I went to Lesbian and Gay Pride in the eighties and it was an amazing experience An anarchic ball of energy, everyone just showed up, got angry and had a good time. Now they ask people to walk the route with a work place group or some other organization if they can and the corporate logos are everywhere.

zanahoria · 01/06/2025 18:57

One of the biggest supporters of Pride is the premier league, the very same premier league that welcomes investment from gulf nations that persecute homosexuals, treat immigrant labour no better than slaves and jail women for complaining about rape. It is even possible to buy football shirts emblazoned with messages about ending racism or homophobia alongside advertising message for companies owned by these states.

I wonder how many of the other corporate sponsors of Pride are as clean as they make out ?

PlasticAcrobat · 01/06/2025 19:07

zanahoria · 01/06/2025 17:40

"But this ignores the Rashomon effect, named after the Japanese film in which four characters each view the same set of events very differently"

That's not how I saw the film

Do you mean that you saw the film differently from other viewers of the same film, who interpreted it as meaning that different viewers can view the same set of events very differently?

I love the potential paradox there.

WallaceinAnderland · 01/06/2025 19:18

It all boils down to whether or not you think transwomen are women.

That's it. That covers everything.

zanahoria · 01/06/2025 19:45

https://i2-prod.chroniclelive.co.uk/incoming/article31214356.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/0_Liverpool-v-Newcastle-United-Carabao-Cup-Final.jpg

Newcastle United's chairman, Yasir Al-Rumayyan, on the pitch celebrating his side's victory in the Carabao Cup

The Newcastle chairman, Yasir al-Rumayyan, has been described as “a sitting minister of the Saudi government” in a document submitted to a court in the US

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/mar/01/newcastle-united-chairman-court-document-sitting-saudi-arabia-government-minister

So we have a minister of a government notorious for the persecution of homosexuals on the pitch after the final of a tournament organized by the English Football League that proudly states

In celebration of the LGBTQ+ community, the English Football League (EFL) and Official Match Ball partners, PUMA are proud to reveal an all-new Rainbow match ball, which serves as a reminder that football is for everyone, everywhere

efl.com/news/2025/february/06/efl-and-puma-s-iconic-rainbow-ball-returns-for-second-year/

Court document describes Newcastle chairman as ‘sitting Saudi minister’

The Newcastle United chairman, Yasir al-Rumayyan, has been described as ‘a sitting minister of the Saudi government’ in a document submitted to a US court

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/mar/01/newcastle-united-chairman-court-document-sitting-saudi-arabia-government-minister

BundleBoogie · 01/06/2025 20:44

President Trump and Elon Musk slashed international development funding in March, and an already beleaguered Stonewall lost $600,000.

This jumped out at me. We’ve known for many years about the large amounts of money being paid to Stonewall from the US - organisations like the Arcus Foundation with the aim of promoting LGBTQ because it was ‘good business strategy’. Link in the next post.

Why good business strategy? Might it be anything to do with the strategy you expand the $multi billion trans ‘healthcare’ market? It was a tiny market a few years ago and is now vast with huge profits involved. The NHS and private doctors in the UK also buy medication and expertise from the US so, along with the many other European countries with a US trading relationship, we have contributed to the explosive growth of the industry.

BundleBoogie · 01/06/2025 20:45

link to blog post on this.

gendercriticalwoman.blog/2021/04/22/arcus-foundation-grants/

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 02/06/2025 10:59

zanahoria · 01/06/2025 18:57

One of the biggest supporters of Pride is the premier league, the very same premier league that welcomes investment from gulf nations that persecute homosexuals, treat immigrant labour no better than slaves and jail women for complaining about rape. It is even possible to buy football shirts emblazoned with messages about ending racism or homophobia alongside advertising message for companies owned by these states.

I wonder how many of the other corporate sponsors of Pride are as clean as they make out ?

Edited

You’d think Jolyon the fox beater would be ALL over that one wouldn’t you? Given that he’s campaigning vociferously against anyone who advertises on GB News at the moment.

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