Gender neutral rooms - hidden cameras

[maltravers]

The Guardian has an article today about the rising problem of hidden cameras, where men film women getting changed/bathing/going to the loo. Lifetime prevalence of voyeuristic behaviour stated to be 11.5% but probably higher. A Canadian study suggesting 79% of men would engage in voyeuristic behaviour if there was no risk of being caught. Naturally no conclusions drawn by the Graun about the appropriateness and safety of gender neutral facilities! I’m beginning to wonder about the enthusiasm shown by some guys for GN bathrooms etc. link here:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/may/27/secret-spy-cameras-voyeurism-uk

That’s just not true. I’m from Europe. And anyway, to think that everything is better across the Channel strikes me as a little naive.

I'm in. I'm sure we could raise enough to print a copy for every MP, too.

Nonsense. I am in a European country right now and have yet to come across gender neutral toilets. So far I have seen none. Not one. I have recently been to another European country and there were also no gender-neutral toilets, except in small coffee shops which only had one toilet.

Even if women in Europe didn't complain (which by the way also isn't true), this would not mean they were right.

How hard is it to understand that many traumatised women and girls CANNOT use gender-neutral toilets, and that these toilets pose a health risk to some people, eg those with epilepsy or PNES? Where do you suggest these women and girls go?

I know of three separate criminal cases convicted and 2 were cleaners (male) who cleaned women’s loos the final one was a gym instructor at a leisure centre. None involved gender neutral facilities!

So you know of three cases and now you want to make it easier for more men to install these cameras and film women in mixed sex toilets? Is that what you are saying?

Re the book, MPs wouldn’t read it. And if they did they wouldn’t connect it with GN loos. And if they did, they would angrily accuse you of painting TWs as predators. We just don’t want only GN loos, ok?! Mostly single sex please.

A sample of 3? Hold the front page!

(Hint - at least 2 of these cases involved men being given access to women's loos. There are some dots you could join.)

I'm confused. I thought trans women had to be in the women's toilets because being in the space with men was so incredibly dangerous. But if gender neutral toilets are fine with no issue then surely that means trans women are totally safe being in that space with men.

Nice point Domino.

Are rape crisis centres.neutral all across Europe? Are prisons or hospital wards,.are changing rooms or police stations or sports field?
I have been many times to Europe and never had a problem with toilets. It was only in the smallest cafes and such were they shared.

I would think that the vast majority of men and women would both prefer single sex toilets. Definitely my DH would after experiencing ‘gender neutral’ ones in Manchester restaurants. And to Christinapple I’d point out that France is hardly the poster boy for supporting women and children’s rights atm.

It’s blindingly obvious to most people that the best solution overall in most situations is proper single sex facilities plus some appropriately designed mixed sex provision. I’m very much in favour of more of the latter in the mix, for the benefit of parents with opposite sex kids.
It’s not rocket science.

At the Globe theatre recently, the loos inside the main building were single sex, but then sort of outside round the back there are 2 sets of cubicles and washbasins -presumably once labelled male and female but now unlabelled. Cue people arriving, scratching their heads for a moment and then designating the one on the right for blokes and the one on the left for women. 😂

Random reasons I don't like mixed sex loos:

When I was 15 my parents took me to Paris (1970s). We went to a public loo - and mum and I had to walk past a row of men cocks in hand pissing away to get to the ladies' cubicles. We never talked about it - but I remember.

I've been in mixed loos here recently where men have not bothered to shut the door - and act like they're at a urinal.

The splashes. The 'scent'.

The encountering a man in a closed room with lockable cubicles when you weren't expecting it. The realisation how vulnerable we'd be - a quick shove, lock the door and we've had it. Now imagine it's your little girl who encounters him. Because the fact he followed her into the mixed sex loos has lost the fast automatic 'what if he's up to no good?' reaction we used to be allowed to have.

A local venue has gender neutral loos. We all have to line up and wait - and foghorn voiced lady volunteers bellow 'THE URINALS ARE OVER THERE!'. The poor chaps who need something other than a urinal have no option but to stay in the queue staring awkwardly into space waiting to scuttle into a cubicle. And Everybody Knows they're doing a poo.

And now ... Try googling 'Molka'.

And 'menophilia'. For some fetishists, encountering a used tampon or towel that is still warm is the Holy Grail of creepiness.

I went to an art exhibition at a modern synagogue and was surprised to find a mixed sex 'gender neutral' loo. Then I looked again and saw ladies one side of it and gents the other. All three facilities had a changing space for children and disabled adults. It was exemplary - space for everyone, room for someone to help someone else, a space for those who wouldn't use the space for their own sex, room for those who require single sex space.

DH first walked into the ‘gender neutral loos’ without urinals before quickly backing out and realising the gender neutral toilets with urinals were the ones he was looking for. I did the opposite, walked into the ones with urinals, saw a man using them and backed out. Then used the other one without urinals.

In such a situation, it is highly likely that only men with dubious intentions would use the gender neutral without urinals, but women would have absolutely no grounds to complain. All thanks to the progressive views of Manchester.

Doesn’t solve or answer the issue of voyeurism though. It’s just another space made easy for cameras to be installed.

I would prefer young kids to go in with their parents then go to the toilets of their sex on their own after 8 (or 10 the EHRC is saying).
I don’t think an adult with a child of a different sex should be afforded more privacy than an adult with a child of the same sex. If we keep the door gaps under single sex toilets then children are safer inside the cubicles.

I’m not quite sure what you mean? If anyone with or without a child (of either sex) prefers the self contained ‘mixed sex’ cubicles over single sex then they’re free to use them.

Children have been led into toilet cubicles and harmed. This happened on a big scale in Rochdale but that was men and boys. However I know of incidences in schools, then stations, supermarkets, shopping centres, railway carriages. Lots of busy public places.

I can’t imagine anyone going into a set of toilets and not intervening if they thought a child was in trouble. However, if you have a mixed sex cubicle they are designed to be resistant to sound and not have door gaps. Basically any private space in a public area has not got any supervision inside the cubicle and is more likely to have things going on in it that are illegal. There is a specific clause in the sexual offences act 2003 making it illegal to have sex in a public toilet but that doesn’t stop people if they think are likely to get away with it.

If we had single sex designs with door gaps I think there would be less sexual assaults in toilets. You would be able to see how many were in the cubicle and hear sounds.

Obviously there are exceptions when the only option is a mixed sex toilet room. But we shouldn’t be advocating for more of them. CCTV is retrospective.

I agree with you that the mixed sex toilets need to be appropriately designed. This means in an area where who is going in and out could be closely monitored by a human, and checking if people were ok if they were in for too long. But we may end up as a country carving up single sex provision or creating unisex toilets in completely inappropriate, isolated places.

I would say though that single sex provision is isolated and enclosed and is directly off a mixed sex space, it is not much better. It’s just unisex with a different pictogram on the door.

I know from my research, it’s the design that’s the factor as to whether it’s safe. Mixed sex are never as safe.

Going back to the original OP, I think there are many tiny cameras inside mixed sex toilet cubicles/rooms (privacy gives the time and accessibility to set them up) so voyeurism is less risk and more reward.

I would never have taken my daughter into a men's single sex toilet room with urinals and cubicles. That effectively meant that there were few places I could take my daughter until she was old enough to use the women's toilets unaided. Fortunately I was not a single dad.

I’d read your book for sure, KTSS.

When we went with opposite sex children, we just called out to warn anyone then shielded their eyes.