Gender identity training at work

[Aaaandanothername]

We're having training at work from these people https://www.ihasco.co.uk/courses/detail/gender-identity-expression-training#contents and wondering what people think? It seems to talk the right talk about biological sex, but doesn't seem to acknowledge (in the blurb at least) that some people don't have a gender identity or see it as a belief.

I know nothing about muslim traditions, but men definitely don't wear trousers under kilts.

Sometimes men just wear clothes to make a fashion statement.

There is a difference between wearing clothes to appear to be a woman, and wearing clothes because you just like clothes. Some men do just like clothes.

You have no idea what someone's motivations for wearing a dress are but even if you are correct, mocking is not against the law, especially not when done in a way that many people wouldn't recognise as mocking.

Men and women can wear what they like - what's the alternative plan?

I have always assumed that women started to wear trousers as access to public toilets grew.

I'm not sure how you squat modestly in trousers.

You have no idea if it's sexual for a given person and besides that, what's the plan? Laws on who gets to wear a dress?

Why are you bringing up the law? What's the law got to do with it?

Pp was talking about her own disapproval (that I share). Not the law.

It is possible for activities to be within the law but nonetheless inspire disapproval or disgust.

Mocking a protected characteristic in an employment or service situation could well be against the law as it could fall under harassment within the equality act.

But it is disingenuous to pretend that the clothes the man below is wearing is anything other than fetish wear:

No, we can't stop them from dressing as caricatures of female prostitutes if that is what they want.

But we also don't need to celebrate it, or pretend they are just living their best life.

And they can keep their tackle out of women's spaces.

Great, disapprove away!

This sub-thread started because someone said "I take no issue with men wearing dresses." Doesn't sound like celebrating to me, it sounds like not getting distracted by things that can't be policed anyway

Yes, I know, the point is that it's fine to take issue with men wearing dresses.

I suspect that JK Rowling herself wouldn't have tweeted "dress how you like" if she'd been a couple of years further down the line in this debate and seen how some of them dress.

Wearing a skin tight see through dress with your balls on show in a public place is a violation. You're doing it to make people feel uncomfortable.

I see my photo was approved and then deleted. I guess someone agreed with me.

I believe the mass manufacturing of bicycles also helped popularise women's trousers.

I have absolutely no idea what you’re saying here.

You were saying that dresses aren't practical and I was explaining that they are specifically practical for women because they are less exposing if you need to urinate in a public place.

Men don't have to take their trousers off to urinate.

Thanks for clearing that up 🤔 I’ve obviously led a sheltered life and have never found it necessary to urinate in public, unless when out walking or hiking, when I certainly wouldn’t be wearing a dress anyway, for practical reasons.

I wear a skirt when hiking for precisely this reason!

Do they do training on the others too?

That is a really good idea. Except for ticks.

I was able to give anonymous score feedback for some gender ID training at my workplace - I gave the lowest possible. It’s about all I can do right now. I wasn’t alone in scoring low, but most scores were ok which disappointed me.

Very few men wear dresses and skirts as a pure fashion choice though. I'd say almost none - even in the '80s.
The vast majority of men in female clothes are doing it as a fetish. And you know that really I'm sure.

I suspect this kind of thing is in fact the reason trousers have been mainly for men in our culture.

I remember watching an episode of Tudor Farm once, and one of the presenters mentioned that he had to be sure to have a good long piss in the morning, because once he was dressed for the day using the toilet was extremely difficult.

I think many women would simply not be able to manage that kind of scenario comfortably, and trousers would also be much less useful while pregnant.

I agree. Everybody talks a good game on here but why damage your career just for the sake of making a point which will fly over most people's heads. Look after no1 and focus your efforts on other activities which have equal impact but less personal risk.

If anything I'd be sending an anonymous email copying in HR and stating I felt unable to speak up in the training as it wasn't inclusive of my own protected characteristics or something like that. Maybe even send it as two different people. Obv if I felt it was warranted.

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Bifurcated lower garments have been part of women's 'rational dress' initiatives for quite a while. I learned something about feminism a little while ago that I hadn't realised before. I had rather lazily assumed Amelia Bloomer who gave her name to the popular loaf of bread pants of the same name was something to do with cycling. But the dates don't make sense. She was campaigning at a time when bicycles were still penny farthings and the so called 'safety bicycle' (with similar sized front and rear wheels) wasn't readily available. Later on, when people were riding safety bicycles, bloomers were indeed worn to do so, but initially it was a 'rational dress' initiative. Sorry - totally irrelevant to the the thread.

I’m distinguishing between two different things.

I think it’s sad that men’s fashion choices are so restricted, and I think this is because they are frightened of appearing gay or effeminate.

I think this taboo around wearing anything that might be ‘emasculating’ contributes to cross dressing fetishes.

I think it would be much better if gender non conformity were more acceptable in men.

However, I’m talking about men wearing clothes as men, not caricaturing female bodies.

I also don’t think a return to more adventurous fashion choices would stop men from fetishising what they perceive to be female subservience.

After all plenty of men did that in the eighties too.