Consultation has reopened 20/05/25

[Justme56]

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/codes-practice/code-practice-services-public-functions-and-associations

Not really because men lead boy and girls into toilet cubicles. Horrible but true. Youngest I know is 4 where the mother let the child go into the men’s on his own in a supermarket.
There was a 6 year old on a train. I have lots of examples but it’s overwhelmingly men in men’s loos with boys, or men with either sex in mixed sex toilets. The more private (like gender neutral) ones especially. Disabled toilets are mixed sex and private and children and women have been abused it there too.

It is absolutely right male children go in to toilets with their mothers. I would have presumed 8 but at least it’s erring on the side of caution there.

I wish someone would create a proper database. The police don’t have a centralised database and don’t relate violence and toilets to design.

12.1.3 A trans woman applies to join a women-only association and her application is refused. This would be lawful because…

I will be including in my response that it absolutely does not work to refer to a “trans woman” in this context as if they were a type of woman.

They need to say either “trans woman (biological male)” or “transwoman” (or TIM, although they won’t go for that) in this context to make it clear that the reason this person is being refused is because they’re not a woman, not because they’re a certain type of woman who’s allowed to be excluded.

Gender-affected activity is defined in the EA2010 (by reference to sex - s195(3)) so this is just being carried through.

Thanks for the link. I've submitted my response.

Ah, thanks. 🙏

Interesting about taking little boys into the ladies.

All the pushback from transactivists is really going nail down the guidance.

I've just seen this saying the updated guidance is out?
And people can be asked to prove their sex?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/05/20/shops-can-question-trans-people-in-changing-rooms/

I'm confused about this and the consultation.?

I don’t think you can put an exact age on it, it’s generally primary school age/prepubescent is ok. So 10 is about the maximum. It depends on the location (dodgy public loos v nice hotel pool for example ), and the capability and maturity of the child.
I only have daughters but do have a 4 year old nephew and definitely wouldn’t send him into the loo or changing room by himself, for his safety and also because god knows what he’d get up to in there unsupervised! My 9 year old nephew would be fine alone and wouldn’t want to come in to the ladies anyway.

It wasn’t prove their sex but they can be discreetly and in private asked their sex at birth. The example wasn’t a shop but a group I think, and there was single sex and mixed sex group. The receptionist didn’t think the person looked female so took the trans woman into a private room to ask sex at birth and then direct the person to the appropriate service. IIRC

The EHRC have published their proposed changes to the existing code of practice in draft form, and the consultation invites comments on the specific changes they’re proposing.

I meant that an additional gender neutral option would allow parents to take opposite sex children with them. Many parents with older children with SEND and carers with opposite sex clients would also find it very helpful not to have to send them into a single sex facility alone.

Does anyone have an archived version of this or a share token?

There's a bit of a grey area with primary aged boys. I'd say 8-10 is enough leeway dependant on the child - how mature they are, how old they look, whether they have any SN. Also as you say, the location.

I have 3 sons (all adult now) and somewhere around 8/9 they all stopped wanting to go in with me because it made them uncomfortable. One of the rare upsides of 3 boys close in age was they could be sent in the men's toilets together or in a pair to keep an eye on each other.

It's changing facilities that are more tricky, not just because of risk but also because they lose stuff, have difficulty operating lockers, might be silly and mess about etc.

Which I suppose is why most places have the unisex changing village type facilities now. Which are a great idea in theory but I suspect will have had their share of issues if you could see the complaints data for all of them.

I’m beginning to think that Gender Reassignment should not ever have been included as a protected characteristic, I know you can’t tie rights to surgery but it makes as much sense as being a goth or vegan a protected characteristic.

Being a vegan is/can be a protected characteristic. It comes under protected beliefs. Same a gender critical belief.

I suppose they have a point. If we believe that some women unintentionally pass as men.

For men transitioners, showing a birth certificate and a GRC excludes them from the women only space. If they want to use the space, its in their interest not to show the GRC and just pretend not to have one, just like the millions(at least!) of women who will also be challenged.

It makes sense for women transitioner who need to use the service. They may look male, have a male bc, but the GRC proves that they are female.

The other thing I don’t see specifically addressed (and even Sex Matters seems to skate round it on their website?), is where toilets are billed as gender neutral/mixed sex and have separate “rooms” with floor to ceiling doors, but the sinks are outside in a communal area.

I think this doesn’t/shouldn’t count as single sex, but I know several employers (including city law firms) and public spaces like theatres and galleries that do this.

Are they waiting for case law to justify this? Should this be addressed in the guidance?

This is long but I’m interested to know what pp think

EHRC guidance
2.2.7 A trans woman goes to the office of a local support group and makes enquiries with the receptionist about the group counselling sessions they offer. Based on the needs of its service users, the group provides different sessions that are single-sex or mixed-sex. The receptionist reasonably thinks that the trans woman is a biological male and, as there are some other people waiting in the office, asks her to come into a side room to get more details about the support she is looking for. When they are in private, the receptionist explains the different group sessions that are offered and asks the trans woman what her birth sex is. When she confirms her birth sex, the receptionist provides her with the details of the mixed-sex groups she could attend.

2.2.8 If there is genuine concern about the accuracy of the response to a question about birth sex, then a birth certificate could be requested. For the vast majority of individuals, this will be an accurate statement of their birth sex. However, it should be noted that a birth certificate may not be a definitive indication of birth sex. If a person has a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) they may have obtained an amended birth certificate in their acquired gender. In the unlikely event that it is decided that further enquiries are needed, such as confirmation as to whether a person has a GRC, then any additional requests should be made in a proportionate way which is discreet and sensitive.

2.2.9 It is important to be aware of legal provisions protecting privacy in the context of making such enquiries. If, in the course of these enquiries or otherwise, a service provider, those exercising public functions or an association acquires information that someone has a GRC or has applied for a GRC, onward disclosure of either that information or their biological sex without consent may be a criminal offence in some circumstances (read section 22 of the Gender Recognition Act 2004).

Two things.

I think a mixed sex option is pretty important in list settings. I have a Sen child who is currently only 7 and I can't imagine he would be capable of going in the men's alone now or in a couple of years. I also would feels it's wrong taking him into the ladies by then too.

Our local swimming pool has mixed sex changing with cubicles and then separate toilets and showers. You do however end up walking from the showers across to the lockers and cubicles in just a towel. I'm wary of exhibitionists or voyers as there are gaps at floor level.

This is probably the best solution for me personally as a fully enclosed room has safety concerns as above but I don't like risking my privacy for the sake of accessibility. The only solution I can see if having all options available and everyone takes the best option for them. Warnings on the door of the enclosed space plus frequent staff checks.

--

On another note. Can't people change the letter on their birth certificate and passport? What happens if a nearly passing or androgenous tw comes in. Staff or users challenge them, tw insists they are female and shows passport/BC. What do staff do at that point?

Ah thank you.
8 hadn't read the consultation so didn't realise it was a proposal to comment on.
The article isn't clear it's a consultation they make it sound like this is the new guidance.

It's ridiculous having birth certificates that may or may not record sex accurately.

But if the trans community abuse their birth certificates in their acquired gender, i can see this guidance being very difficult to carry out with tact.

Reading that blurb. If someone has a GRC what then?

Maybe it’s in the rest of the doc

I also would like this addressed specifically. It should be fully enclosed with its own sink and toilet in to be classed as ‘universal’ ie mixed sex in Document T. This came into regs in 2024. I would like to know what happens pre 2024.

I think it’s generally good.

I would also have liked examples around single sex groups where safety is not an issue - like women only reading clubs for example, can they legally refuse to admit trans women even though there is no safety or privacy issue (I think they can and should be able to but it isn’t very clear).

Also I think allowing people to change sex on their birth certificates is madness but that isn’t going to be dealt with here!

Also not sure if it was clear enough around the issue of sport where there is no clear sex based physical advantage, like pool/snooker, but women could still be disadvantaged because of issues like lack of opportunity to play, feeling uncomfortable going to pool clubs etc