Radio 4 Strong Message Here (now - 15th May) Yes or No?

[WinterTrees]

I've just turned on and heard Helen Lewis and Armando Iannucci talking about the 'gender debate' as an example of a yes or no political discussion, where black and white shibboleths are demanded.

Anyone listening? I'm just going back to listen to it all on Sounds (which means I'll be spared a bit of Anita Rani's simpering on WH.) Iannucci sounds a little nervous, I think.

Updating to say the discussion moved on to Gaza and anti-semitism, and how many members of a group need to be spreading messages of 'hate' before that group can be deemed anti-semitic, for example. Iannucci definitely tried to 'both sides' it in the gender section, but I note that it was not referred to again in this context, probably because - to my almost certain knowledge - no women have ever been seen at a feminist gathering with banners showing gallows or advocating violence and murder for trans people, yet they're still called anti-trans. Meanwhile numerous equivalent signs appear at every trans rally and are photographed and well documented, but these events are never called anti-women.

Still, it was reasonably good to hear the problem of black and white/right and wrong side of history being spoken about on the BBC, even if a little ironic and not nearly in enough depth.

Heard it. Iannucci raised the awful spectre of trans women having used the ladies’ toilets “for thirty years” - what will they do now?? You could tell where his sympathies lay. It’s STILL a yes/no matter even if you don’t like it.

Oh yes and he mentioned ‘terfs’.

Ah, the "we've always done it that way" excuse for not using your fucking brain.

A great excuse for not: abolishing slavery, child prostitution, women not being allowed to vote and any other number of themes for a patriarchal wank fest.

I was listening, it was annoying. I noticed IA saying “on the one hand trans people and on the other…” then drying up/flanneling etc because he couldn’t bring himself to use “gender critical women” (too dangerous?) or something neutral, his use of “terfs” and what poor TW would do, how complicated it all was. Just another woke bro or luvvie coward.

Yes . These dudes are all for "progression" until it's about women. Then all of a sudden tradition becomes important.

Traditions - like international standards - are wonderful. There are so many to choose from.

By that logic, we should never have abolished slavery.

If Iannucci tried describing the behaviour of the two sides of the sex/gender debate as both being as bad as each other, I would expect Lewis to put him right on his misconception.

Helen Lewis keeps an eye on this topic and knows about feminists, and other women campaigning, who have been attacked, threatened, vilified and harassed. She knows that the TRA activists have been physically violent on more than one occasion while the women rights movement most definitely have not.

I heard it. I wanted to kick Alexa!

The programme included a discussion about the 'What is a woman?" gotcha. It's typical of the lack of understanding and interest that no one points out that people are never asked "What is a man?".

I am fed up with the 'both sides' approach, when with a little thought and research it would be clear that that isn't the case. The TRAs are so good at initialising and then controlling the narrative. We do need to work out how to take this back.

I like Armando Iannuci and listening to this made me feel it’s something he has no real interest or knowledge about and has heard one side of the story and has taken the liberal leftie view of sympathy towards an oppressed minority.

Helen Lewis likes to think she’s sensible middle ground, additional spaces etc.

I thought it was more than we would have had a couple of years ago. But ultimately this whole issue probably occupies a minuscule amount of brain space for IA so he won’t think hard about it. He can wash his hands and think about something more interesting.