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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Shortshriftandlethal · 15/05/2025 11:17

ClawsandEffect · 15/05/2025 10:47

My thought is that the ruling has given an excuse to those who want to be aggressive about the policing of sex and gender. No more need to 'be kind' because the ruling has negated the need for it and given them a justification for publicly exposing their bigotry.

Any stupid or unpleasant behaviour will only be temporary......whilst all of this is current and in the news. Soon everyone will go back to 'normal' business and the re-establishment of single sex meaning single sex will become how it used to be.

Of course, it was the radical trans movement that created this scenario in the first instance, by misrepresenting the law for one, and also by not giving one fuck about the existing rights and protections of the female sex. Also by trying to have everyone repeat the mantra TWAW and TMAM - when everyone knows full well they are not.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 11:17

BedlingtonLover · 15/05/2025 11:14

I know several people with blue badges who have been aggressively harassed because people don’t believe they’re disabled/disabled enough. Does that mean we should remove blue badges from all? It would stop the harassment, right?

Or give blue badges to everyone? That would fix the problem.

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 11:18

KT1113 · 15/05/2025 11:11

OP I don't know why you bothered, this thread is full of people who aren't interested in the other side of any coin. A bad experience for this particular woman isn't relevant to them, because it wouldn't happen to them. Although being attacked by someone pretending to be trans to access women also hasn't happened to them, but is of grave concern.

We know what the other side of the coin is, @KT1113 . What you don't get, is that it proves our point. That males in female spaces has caused this. People being on high alert. You aren't capable of comprehending that.

BiologicalRobot · 15/05/2025 11:18

My thoughts OP?

No such thing as a cis woman.
The photo is of a woman.
Short hair or wearing a hoodie doesn't make you a man.
Not our fault an aggressive man is aggressive to others.

I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body
Most do fuck all to their body. Caz needs to educate herself.

And finally... are you the same poster who had all their threads deleted recently, including the one about Stephen Whittle? Your posting style is uncannily similar 🤔

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 15/05/2025 11:18

Man is aggressive towards someone who is clearly a woman. This is the fault of women and as a way to stop men being aggressive to women we should allow them into spaces where women have their knickers round their ankles . Yep just about sums up trans logic

Igneococcus · 15/05/2025 11:19

Raindropsandroses9 · 15/05/2025 10:56

It can be frustrating when people put ignorance in understanding the modern day world is down to age. My friends DH in his 60s is involved in IT & AI training at work. I don't know his exact title but that's part of his job.I doubt a discussion with a member of the trans community would challenge his intellectual understanding of differences in sex and gender 🙄

I was changing my broadband deal and the guy on the phone (probably thanks to my name which is an old ladies name in the UK but I'm not British) asked me with a very concerned voice if I'd be alright updating some details online by myself and offered to talk me through it step by step. No, I'm fine thanks, I've had an email address since 1993 (almost certainly before he was born) and can run electron microscopes, NGS sequencers and similar equipment without someone holding my hand, I'll be fine with an online form.

Greyskybluesky · 15/05/2025 11:19

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 11:17

Or give blue badges to everyone? That would fix the problem.

Or let those people who feel they really really want a blue badge to create their own blue badge and use it wherever they want?

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/05/2025 11:20

CactusSammy · 15/05/2025 10:56

I'm really not convinced the man thought Caz was a trans woman.

More like he thought she looked like a lesbian, and he didn't like that, so thought he'd be a twat to her.

Just a man bring a complete aggressive bellend to a woman. No change there, then.

I reckon the man in question was not big on nuance or critical thinking. Because this has all been in the news, he had a heightened alertness to the issue - saw what he thought could have been a man ( from behind) and kicked off. That's it.

CustardySergeant · 15/05/2025 11:21

What on earth does "I have a strong male energy" mean?

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 11:21

Greyskybluesky · 15/05/2025 11:19

Or let those people who feel they really really want a blue badge to create their own blue badge and use it wherever they want?

All blue badges are valid. If you say they are not you’re just a bigot.

Greyskybluesky · 15/05/2025 11:22

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 11:21

All blue badges are valid. If you say they are not you’re just a bigot.

What if I want a pink badge? 🤔

potpourree · 15/05/2025 11:22

CustardySergeant · 15/05/2025 11:21

What on earth does "I have a strong male energy" mean?

I can only read it as some sexist crap. But I'm an empty-headed female heeheehee what would I know about being brash or tall or confident.

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 11:23

Perhaps someone could explain to us why third spaces aren't a solution? Don't complain that they don't exist much already, it was your choice to spend the last 10+ years campaigning for the obliteration of female spaces rather than the addition of new ones. You got the law of the land completely misapplied, you got people sacked, silenced, smeared and terrified to state material reality, you got zillions of pounds to promote your agenda, you had the government and human rights institutions throwing their full weight behind you, you got rapists called "she" and locked up with women. There was nothing you couldn't do if you wanted it (other than change sex). If you'd decided you wanted additional third spaces you'd have them by now. And you still could. The terfs would join forces with you on this one.

So why aren't you campaigning for them? Why won't they do?

aylis · 15/05/2025 11:24

KT1113 · 15/05/2025 11:11

OP I don't know why you bothered, this thread is full of people who aren't interested in the other side of any coin. A bad experience for this particular woman isn't relevant to them, because it wouldn't happen to them. Although being attacked by someone pretending to be trans to access women also hasn't happened to them, but is of grave concern.

It's full of people criticising the societal stereotypes and male aggression that are the root of her experience. We are opposed to both of those things. Do you want us to whip ourselves?

Icecreammaninavan · 15/05/2025 11:26

She’s not a cis woman. She’s a woman.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 11:26

Greyskybluesky · 15/05/2025 11:22

What if I want a pink badge? 🤔

Pink blue badges are blue badges.

pearandchocolate · 15/05/2025 11:28

KT1113 · 15/05/2025 11:11

OP I don't know why you bothered, this thread is full of people who aren't interested in the other side of any coin. A bad experience for this particular woman isn't relevant to them, because it wouldn't happen to them. Although being attacked by someone pretending to be trans to access women also hasn't happened to them, but is of grave concern.

On the contrary, I'm pretty sure at least a couple of women on this thread (and I know many others outside of it) have described how they've occasionally been mistaken for men (minus the aggression) and said it was fine. The aggression is not OK, but the polite challenge if someone seems to be in the wrong toilet is. Knowing they'll be challenged is an effective deterrent for many men who might otherwise try to come into women's spaces. I mean in theory we could have been doing it all along, couldn't we, to keep "cis" (not my word) men out, as they have supposedly never been allowed in women's toilets. Given that, why has the SC ruling apparently made challenges more likely?

Seeingadistance · 15/05/2025 11:30

mummytoonetryingfortwo · 15/05/2025 08:55

The thing is, Bev, this didn’t happen.

Quite.

Very definitely did not happen. She is a woman, who clearly looks like a woman, surrounded by other woman who would see that she was a woman in a space for women.

So, why the fuck would one of those other women say to her, "You are welcome here"!

Made up nonsense to push a particular agenda.

CassOle · 15/05/2025 11:31

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 11:18

We know what the other side of the coin is, @KT1113 . What you don't get, is that it proves our point. That males in female spaces has caused this. People being on high alert. You aren't capable of comprehending that.

The vibe of that post reminds me of this...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
GoodWorkSally · 15/05/2025 11:31

A woman with short hair. How we all survived the eighties when we all had short hair I will never know

In the 80s, with glam rock and gender-bending as it was called then, there were plenty of men in make up, long hair and flowy feminine clothes. None of them would have been seen dead in the ladies because they knew they were men.

Anyway that's clearly a woman and the bloke was wrong, but you can't blame women needing single sex spaces for that.

mummytoonetryingfortwo · 15/05/2025 11:35

Seeingadistance · 15/05/2025 11:30

Quite.

Very definitely did not happen. She is a woman, who clearly looks like a woman, surrounded by other woman who would see that she was a woman in a space for women.

So, why the fuck would one of those other women say to her, "You are welcome here"!

Made up nonsense to push a particular agenda.

And they all speak in the same manner that the supposed victim types!!

GoodWorkSally · 15/05/2025 11:36

I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them

I'm old and I don't misunderstand what trans means. I also object to the 'cis' label. I'm not a subset of women. I am a woman. Trans people do not frighten me one way or the other. I just don't want people with a penis in my private spaces be it a toilet or changing room. The law is on my side. Let men sort out their own problems just as women have had to do since the dawn of time.

Greyskybluesky · 15/05/2025 11:38

@FebruaryFever is spot on: But please, please stop implying that women are to blame for bringing this upon themselves by asking that our single-sex spaces are defined as single-sex - which they are supposed to have been all along - out of necessity. It reminds me of someone saying ‘see what you’ve done now bitch?’

This response (my bolding) is now all over social media. It's your own fault, women!

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 11:39

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

I've been stuck in a loop since reading that, sorry.

Renamed · 15/05/2025 11:40

LizzieSiddal · 15/05/2025 06:47

Caz is very clearly a woman, she looks like a woman and every woman around her in the queue knew she was a woman and supported her. She handled it well.
I’m not sure what she’s complaining about.

You’re not sure what she’s complaining about? I’d fucking complain if it was me.

We didn’t go through all the arguments about women needing safe spaces only for aggressive men to start policing women’s appearance?

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