Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Please help me define 'wokeism'

79 replies

BlessingKalmly · 14/05/2025 21:05

This isn't a thread for making jokes, or at least that isn't my intention...

I just can't seem to totally pinpoint the definition, so that is comprehensive...

What is woke?

OP posts:
TempestTost · 10/12/2025 02:29

JamieCannister · 09/12/2025 16:38

The idea that someone with a penis can be a lesbian is a woke idea. I am not sure that any time in 1960 to 2015 the idea that someone with a penis can be a lesbian would have been regarded as liberal. I think it would have been regarded as utterly insane (and maybe also regressive and bigoted if anyone could have been persuaded to take the idea seriously enough to actually deconstruct it properly).

Show quote history

The liberal idea might have been " we aren't defined by our biology" whereas in this case the woke version is "lesbians can have a penis."

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/12/2025 02:41

TooBigForMyBoots · 09/12/2025 23:52

Is the use of Left Wing in discussion also a rhetorical device to signal or should I say “dog whistle” that the content of someone’s speech is to be ignored and preferably not read or engaged with in good faith?

Show quote history

It can be, yes. As always depends on the context.

TempestTost · 10/12/2025 02:43

JamieCannister · 09/12/2025 17:59

I like that but not sure it covers everything. (Not saying I can do better).

What I don;t understand is why "working class" or "poor" or "ordinary" or "average or below income" aren't regarded as "identities", and why someone woke does not say "people suffering in an unequal society are the biggest identity group, and being poor is worse than being a woman or black or Jewish or gay, so as people obsessesed with identity politics why don't we focus on economically underprivileged people as the most important identity group?"

The answer has to be something to do with it being imposed by the rich, or perhaps the fact that the people pushing woke are simply relatively privileged middle class people, or utter grifters, and they all care about individual rights and freedoms much more than they do left wing politics.

Show quote history

One thing to consider is the internal make up of the groups that are looking for some kind of special consideration. Let's say the black community. Who are the leaders of that community and what interests do they actually represent?

The fact is that there is a lot of variation even in a country like the US, and that includes economic and other advantages. People like Obama and Harris came from financially stable families with educated parents and lived internationally. How much do they have in common with a poor black family in a crime ridden neighbourhood? Less than the white family who lives next door.

But if they become leaders, they can set the agenda for what their group supposedly wants. And chances are that will look like what's good for the middle classes.

They'd much rather push those racial identities than economic ones.

LeftieRightsHoarder · 10/12/2025 04:15

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2025 22:33

It's telling people they should do something because it's the 'right thing' because they've been told so, without engagement of a brain and critical thoughts as to what that actually means or how it relates to the real world and a total indifferent to class lines and political issues in the UK instead preferring to defer to an American Middle Class Agenda.

Good example - lecturing to a working class area and audience about how they should be considering how terrible slavery was and how all us white people benefitted from it and we should pay reparations and recognise our privilege.

When everyone in the room has lived in the same area forever, all their ancestors worked down the local pit in appalling and dangerous conditions, just about scrapping enough money for food. Having lived through being laid off when the market conditions weren't great. They've all grafted for the benefit of the pit owners but their family pretty much just survived on a subsistence basis.

So they really really weren't the ones exploiting so shouldn't feel shame. Indeed they were the ones exploited and still feel the effects decades after the pits have closed.

The narrative a) doesn't really reflect the history of those there b) slavery was bad but the structural ideas that still exist with slavery are an American not British social problem c) British social problems are much more about class issues which are now manifesting in this wokeism as it's being used as a tool for modern day social control and power politics.

We are asked to recognise the invisibility of slaves in our history whilst making efforts to firmly erase and silence history, deprivation and exploitation that exists in our current world.

We should be recognising historically bad things happen but then using that against another less powerful group in order to control them, is tone deaf and morally fairly reprehensible.

We should be recognising our current issues and the exploitation of the slavery narrative for really rather white middle class aims or really rather racist agendas which are completely counter to the very idea of equality of individuals and opportunities which talking about slavery is supposed to be about.

Because the lack of thinking kills the ability to see the hypocrisy that runs through it and thus there's a loss of sight of the ultimate overall goal of treating everyone fairly and with respect.

Those people in the mining towns don't care about slavery. Not because they hate black people. They don't care about slavery because it has no relevance to their lives and challenges they face. It has no relevance to the lives of their ancestors either. So they just can't connect to the subject so go "why the buggery bollocks have you come ere to talk about this nonsense. We just want to get off benefits, have a job and not live in a crime and drug ridden shit hole".

Cos their lived experience is a world apart from the academic theoretical nature of wokeism. Wokeism is ideological bunkem that hasn't got worthwhile practical value in the day to day lives of normal people. It's a nuisance and it's expensive and doesn't improve the lives of those struggling economically.

You’ve pinpointed an important issue here, Red. A lot of woke rhetoric I’ve heard in the UK is parroted from US sites and therefore makes little sense over here.

The ignorance of class issues, as you point out.
Also the claim that we should prioritise defending abortion rights (which are under attack in the USA but very much less so here) rather than defending our single-sex rights, which genuinely are in danger here.

And the belief that individualistic causes such as the gender identity movement are left wing (rather than ultra-liberal), and that therefore opposing them aligns us with the ‘Religious Right’, which barely exists in the UK.

NiftyBird · 10/12/2025 04:49

I think its a word that has been very purposefully devalued as a term by the right (mainly the US right) in order to mean "things we don't like".

AcademyFootball · 10/12/2025 05:23

Aisha176 · 09/12/2025 21:36

The difference is I'm speaking factually. Harms do occur & the Right do employ this device for the purposes of diminishing that harms occur.

Show quote history

If you insist on having a veto over what is fact and what is opinion; and also insist on capitalizing the word Right to indicate that you are using it as a synonym for “evil” it will not be possible to have a discussion with you.

What harms are you talking about?

AcademyFootball · 10/12/2025 05:30

5128gap · 09/12/2025 23:08

They may well believe the marches are doing something. Just as people throughout history have marched in protest against something or in the hopes of gaining something. Including women, for the vote and for our employment rights and today, to protect sex based rights.
You are dismissing as doing it for a hobby and stereotyping as 'whingers' those marching for causes you disagree with. Which was entirely my point. The only difference between being 'woke' or 'a bigot' is whether the person labelling you agrees with you.

Show quote history

I don’t necessarily disagree with them, I just usually think it’s more complex than they make out to be, and the people who are actually making a difference know that the real progress isn’t done on marches.

Not even Tony Benn or Jeremy Corbyn think it. They got stuck in where it really happens.

AcademyFootball · 10/12/2025 05:33

TooBigForMyBoots · 09/12/2025 23:52

Is the use of Left Wing in discussion also a rhetorical device to signal or should I say “dog whistle” that the content of someone’s speech is to be ignored and preferably not read or engaged with in good faith?

Show quote history

It can be, but not necessarily. Depends on the writer and context.

Aisha176 · 10/12/2025 05:40

AcademyFootball · 10/12/2025 05:23

If you insist on having a veto over what is fact and what is opinion; and also insist on capitalizing the word Right to indicate that you are using it as a synonym for “evil” it will not be possible to have a discussion with you.

What harms are you talking about?

Show quote history

Real world harms as in discriminatory & abusive behaviour. Demonising & scapegoating immigrants for all of societal ills has consequences in terms of hate crimes as we have seen with the increase with islamaphobia & anti semitism attacks. Same with transpeople.

That this is an indisputable fact pretty much vetoes the 'hurt feelings' con.

I capitalise the 'Right' not as an insult but to differentiate it from the other meaning of 'right' btw.

AcademyFootball · 10/12/2025 05:49

What you have done is take discriminatory behaviours and label the individuals who share those views are Right Wing without a comprehensive understanding of the totality of their views.

How do you explain the mix of race and sex of the Conservative Party leaders since Maggie Thatcher and hope to make the case that they are discriminating when comparing it to Labour.

The fact you choose to say “Same with Transpeople” shows that you are a hopelessly fixated on labels and have no interest in depth or content of issues.

5128gap · 10/12/2025 07:34

RedToothBrush · 14/05/2025 22:33

It's telling people they should do something because it's the 'right thing' because they've been told so, without engagement of a brain and critical thoughts as to what that actually means or how it relates to the real world and a total indifferent to class lines and political issues in the UK instead preferring to defer to an American Middle Class Agenda.

Good example - lecturing to a working class area and audience about how they should be considering how terrible slavery was and how all us white people benefitted from it and we should pay reparations and recognise our privilege.

When everyone in the room has lived in the same area forever, all their ancestors worked down the local pit in appalling and dangerous conditions, just about scrapping enough money for food. Having lived through being laid off when the market conditions weren't great. They've all grafted for the benefit of the pit owners but their family pretty much just survived on a subsistence basis.

So they really really weren't the ones exploiting so shouldn't feel shame. Indeed they were the ones exploited and still feel the effects decades after the pits have closed.

The narrative a) doesn't really reflect the history of those there b) slavery was bad but the structural ideas that still exist with slavery are an American not British social problem c) British social problems are much more about class issues which are now manifesting in this wokeism as it's being used as a tool for modern day social control and power politics.

We are asked to recognise the invisibility of slaves in our history whilst making efforts to firmly erase and silence history, deprivation and exploitation that exists in our current world.

We should be recognising historically bad things happen but then using that against another less powerful group in order to control them, is tone deaf and morally fairly reprehensible.

We should be recognising our current issues and the exploitation of the slavery narrative for really rather white middle class aims or really rather racist agendas which are completely counter to the very idea of equality of individuals and opportunities which talking about slavery is supposed to be about.

Because the lack of thinking kills the ability to see the hypocrisy that runs through it and thus there's a loss of sight of the ultimate overall goal of treating everyone fairly and with respect.

Those people in the mining towns don't care about slavery. Not because they hate black people. They don't care about slavery because it has no relevance to their lives and challenges they face. It has no relevance to the lives of their ancestors either. So they just can't connect to the subject so go "why the buggery bollocks have you come ere to talk about this nonsense. We just want to get off benefits, have a job and not live in a crime and drug ridden shit hole".

Cos their lived experience is a world apart from the academic theoretical nature of wokeism. Wokeism is ideological bunkem that hasn't got worthwhile practical value in the day to day lives of normal people. It's a nuisance and it's expensive and doesn't improve the lives of those struggling economically.

Mm. As a working class woman from a mining family, living all my life in a mining community, I don't entirely agree. I do agree that deprived people often have more pressing concerns than those that seem theoretical or unlikely to touch their lives, but I'm not keen on the stereotype that that renders us incapable of recognising the harm that has been done to other disadvantaged groups by the privileged, and feeling a sense of kinship and common cause. We saw this play out with the mutual support of the mining community and the LGB community in the 80s.
Feminism also rests on it to unite women from all backgrounds in common causes. Yet you could just as easily ask why a WC woman in the queue at the foodbank would concern herself with FGM or abortion rights in the US and not wonder why the top agenda for feminism isn't the increase of benefits so she can feed her children.
I think the idea that 'the WC want this and don't want that' is hugely problematic as its being weaponised to legitimise all sorts of agendas.
The reality is, some WC people will only get behind things percieved to be in our own class interests, others of us will percieve our interests to be interwoven with those of other groups who lack power in different ways and favour a common fight against those who gatekeep it.
This is the reason 'The Left' has embraced a variety of disadvantaged groups beyond the WC; particularly as the whole notion of WC is now pretty blurry, with no consensus as to definition, embracing anyone from a wealthy trades person in a 4 bed new build who left school at 16, to a life long benefit claimant in a council flat on a sink estate. What common cause might they have for 'The Left' to speak to? So rather than focusing on class, the focus has shifted to disadvantage.
Sonetimes that makes good sense. Sometimes, it doesn't and rather than being a common cause where we endeavour to gain extra resources from those who hold disproportionate amounts, it becomes something that requires stretching our limited share to cover others at our cost.

Maryberrysbouffant · 10/12/2025 07:45

I used to think I was woke. Now I think a good definition is “being so open minded your brain has fallen out”

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 10/12/2025 08:20

'Woke' is Black in origin and context. It began in Black communities as red alert for racism and structural injustice. It has been corrupted by the white community to such a point that it is now a cliche.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 10/12/2025 08:33

JamieCannister · 09/12/2025 16:36

Previous it might have been used to describe progressive things like black rights and gay rights. Now the people who describe themselves as woke are pushing a racist anti-white ideology, and a homophobic anti-LGB ideology. And a pro-men anti-women ideology as well.

The left used to say "we believe in class struggle, in other words we want to reduce economic inequality. We also want equal rights for minorities".

The woke left now says "We need to uplift the most oppressed, and that can be done by stomping on their oppressors. Black rights means reparations and positive discrimination (ie anti-white racism). Transgender people are the most oppressed therefore a straight man's right to date a lesbian trump LGB or women's rights. Meanwhile we kinda want a bit more economic equality, but trans rights aare more important."

If I was rich and selfish and thought the left were utter morons I would have invented woke in order to destroy any hope of reducing inequality.

Show quote history

If I was rich and selfish and thought the left were utter morons I would have invented woke in order to destroy any hope of reducing inequality.
Woke came out Black peoples need to reduce the risk of injustice or death that proximity to white people brought. White people didn't need to be rich to be able to do that, just racist and selfish.

JamieCannister · 10/12/2025 09:56

TempestTost · 10/12/2025 02:29

The liberal idea might have been " we aren't defined by our biology" whereas in this case the woke version is "lesbians can have a penis."

Show quote history

The liberal idea should have been "we are, of course, to a very large extent defined by our biology, but that does not mean men and women should not live their lives and persue their interests irrespective of whether their actions are seen as gender cconforming or gender conforming. It is regressive to to think that it is wrong to be gender non-conforming, and that instead you should pretend to be a gender conforming example of something you are not."

I sort of agree that "we aren't defined by our biology", but then again I consider a couple who wish to create a baby together. It is pretty clearly defined that the two potential parents need to be opposite sex, and it is pretty clearly defined by basic biological reality and scientific truth which one will do the impregnating, and which one will do ALL of the hard work between conception and birth (and likely afterwards too).

JamieCannister · 10/12/2025 09:59

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 10/12/2025 08:33

If I was rich and selfish and thought the left were utter morons I would have invented woke in order to destroy any hope of reducing inequality.
Woke came out Black peoples need to reduce the risk of injustice or death that proximity to white people brought. White people didn't need to be rich to be able to do that, just racist and selfish.

Show quote history

"woke" is a term that came from black african americans who were "awake" to the realities of racial injustice.

"woke" now is a term that relates to people who identify as leftist progressives, but do little to nothing in terms of pushing economic equality, whilst focussing on regressive ideas like denying homosexuality exists and anti-white racism.

JamieCannister · 10/12/2025 10:00

Maryberrysbouffant · 10/12/2025 07:45

I used to think I was woke. Now I think a good definition is “being so open minded your brain has fallen out”

Presumably you are a normal, liberal progressive person who wants to make the workd a better place... and you inevitably, like many of us, fell into the trap of supporting the latest iteration before realising it was not at all liberal or progressive.

JamieCannister · 10/12/2025 10:07

Aisha176 · 10/12/2025 05:40

Real world harms as in discriminatory & abusive behaviour. Demonising & scapegoating immigrants for all of societal ills has consequences in terms of hate crimes as we have seen with the increase with islamaphobia & anti semitism attacks. Same with transpeople.

That this is an indisputable fact pretty much vetoes the 'hurt feelings' con.

I capitalise the 'Right' not as an insult but to differentiate it from the other meaning of 'right' btw.

Show quote history

It is abusive to deny someone free speech. It is in everyone's interests that they learn to rise above the hurty feelz caused by people who choose to use their free speech in ways they don't like. Resilience is vital.

Anti-semitism in the UK today has nothing to do with scapegoating immigrants - it is all about hating on people who support the Israeli state, or are assumed to support the Israeli state because they're jewish and not waving plags in support of islamist terrorist organisations.

No-one is scape-goating trans people. We are identifying harms caused by people who illegally refuse to abide by sex based norms.

The greatest threat to immigrants comes from the left of labour and the greens and SNP. As long as those people support open borders and islamification the majority of normal people will go further and further down a rabbit hole that could one day lead to actual fascism and racism.

JamieCannister · 10/12/2025 10:28

NiftyBird · 10/12/2025 04:49

I think its a word that has been very purposefully devalued as a term by the right (mainly the US right) in order to mean "things we don't like".

Person 1 - "I support the right of lesbians to exclude biological males from their spaces"

Person 2 - "I support the right of men who claim to identify as transwomen to go to lesbian bars and use lesbian dating apps"

Would you describe Person 1 or Person 2 as progressive and pro the rights of women and lesbians?

Would you describe Person 1 or Person 2 as woke?

Explain your answers.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 10/12/2025 14:24

The origin of the word 'Woke' has a context that 'the realties of racial injustice' does not do justice. Erasure dressed up as explanation is still erasure no matter how confidently you assert it.

People can be anti white in the UK and US, prejudice isn’t exclusive to one group. However, those people do not have the benefit of generations of systems and institutions to oppress white people, based on the colour of their skin, in the way that many Black people have been.

hallouminatus · 10/12/2025 16:15

Wokeness is strongly associated with suppression of dissent: "no debate", "no platform", "cancel culture", and compelled speech and restrictions on free speech.

TooBigForMyBoots · 11/12/2025 00:27

hallouminatus · 10/12/2025 16:15

Wokeness is strongly associated with suppression of dissent: "no debate", "no platform", "cancel culture", and compelled speech and restrictions on free speech.

That makes Donald Trump woke.😵‍💫

TempestTost · 11/12/2025 00:53

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 10/12/2025 14:24

The origin of the word 'Woke' has a context that 'the realties of racial injustice' does not do justice. Erasure dressed up as explanation is still erasure no matter how confidently you assert it.

People can be anti white in the UK and US, prejudice isn’t exclusive to one group. However, those people do not have the benefit of generations of systems and institutions to oppress white people, based on the colour of their skin, in the way that many Black people have been.

There are plenty of generational systems in the UK (and the US) that oppress white people.

Honestly I don't know how people can say things like this with a straight face, do they know nothing about the history of differernt populations?

AntiRacistFella · 11/12/2025 09:17

TempestTost · 11/12/2025 00:53

There are plenty of generational systems in the UK (and the US) that oppress white people.

Honestly I don't know how people can say things like this with a straight face, do they know nothing about the history of differernt populations?

Show quote history

Taking the US as an example is there an instance of oppression of white people that comes even slightly close to Slavery, Jim Crow laws, forcing Native Americans out of their land and into reservations, or say the internment of Americans of Japanese ethnicity during WW2?

YourAmplePlumPoster · 11/12/2025 09:39

Wokeism is a grievance hierarchy or pyramid. Trans currently takes top place. The bottom of the pyramid is white and heterosexual.